TOPIC: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps
Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #2
I recorded my third debate (second formally moderated; the third was on Unbelievable?) today, versus Choosing Hats contributor Joshua Whipps. You can listen to part 1 here: www.theopologetics.com/2012/06/16/episode-88-death-eternal/. Parts 2 and 3 will be published over the next several days.
Re: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #3
Congratulations on the debate! I'm about 3/4ths through the Death Eternal podcast and so far it seems like he doesn't want to address the topics you brought up in your opening statement and is making a really awkward argument that is kind of hard to follow and that he isn't backing up with quotes from the bible. If the rest of the debate is like the two opening statements... let me just say, congratulations.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.
- Isaac Watts
The following user(s) said Thank You: Chris Date
Re: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #4
Thanks! I agree; I just published part two at http://www.theopologetics.com/2012/06/18...ode-89-god-of-wrath/, which contains first round of cross-examination and second rebuttals.
Re: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #5
Hopefully this is the right site for a reply such as this one. If this one gets any attention I would like to expand on how the Bible clearly promotes that all flesh that will be born into 'this earth' will become part of the living when the place called the 'new earth' exists. I mention this because in looking for a spot that gets a reply there are a few relevant posts I have recently made elsewhere that deal with this particular subject but they are quite lengthy and I don't want to appear to be sandbagging the thread.
This is as far as I am in the sound-clip and I hope this format is an acceptable way to reply. This should be enough to open what path my rebuttal will take.
13:07 risen wicked?? You receive a certain punishment because you were wicked in God's eye, at some point. Punishment is not piled on. Will Adam be resurrected to bodily life, his sin required his death, once that was given was the 'debt' paid? If God orders a certain punishment and the conditions are met is the person then 'forgiven the sin that brought the punishment' with the understanding the sin is also not repeated?
After this I beheld,
a great multitude,
which no man could number,
of all nations,
stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes,
and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice,
Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne,
and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne,
and about the elders and the four beasts,
and fell before the throne on their faces,
and worshipped God,
be unto our God for ever and ever.
And one of the elders answered,
saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him,
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I will cast her into a bed,
and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation,
except they repent of their deeds.
13:34 the sinners that you 'see executed' cannot be anybody after the 7 vials as that kills 2/3 of mankind in a very short time and the only people ever alive after that are anything but sinners. Look at it this way, sinners in one church are given until a certain time to 'repent' and if they fail to do then then a 'specific punishment' is going to be levied. The punishment mentioned is 'great tribulation' so if they go through that then God will forgive their sin. Great tribulation is the vials, to go through that event and be viewed as being the same group below says all punishment desired by God id over by the time the Great White Throne event, God is handing out pardons rather than adding another life term for a crime already paid for. That is where the error is. Satan and fallen angels are the onew in the Bible who qualify as '2nd born' as they looked on god's face and then sinned, that gets then a place in the lake. The conditions there will be similar to what men experienced while in hell, thirst, hunger, and feeling pain if 'injured'. The main point of men going to hell is to mock Satan (repenting) and if God was going to destroy the men in hell they would be released so they were with Satan when he is sent to his eternal home, the fiery lake. By being in hell those men could not be tempted to be decieved a second time, hell has cured their blindness.
15:45 sinners are sent to the place prepared for fallen angels and Satan.
The Beast from the Pit is a fallen angel, as the the 4 in the next trump and that is the main reason they are classified as 'woes on the inhabitants of the earth'. Jude says Enoch prophecies of their destruction, Moses in the verse below speaks of it in the past tense, that leaves the event taking place in the 40 days the windows of the Ark were closed.
And he said,
The LORD came from Sinai,
and rose up from Seir unto them;
he shined forth from mount Paran,
and he came with ten thousands of saints:
from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
The 'Pit' is where they were sent, hell is a part of that same 'pit'. The Beast and the False Prophet are sent to the lake on the day of return, that means they are of the 2nd birth, daeth for a 2nd born being is the lake, grace does not exist for men in the new earth, they are equal in knowledge and power as the angels of these heavens, immortality is part of the 2nd birth and that is why rehab won't work. In a night/day place they would be the eternal night-shift. Mankind onlt gets a 2nd birth after the river in Eze:47 is a fact, until then it is all first birth and death covers all sins, as great as prayer and repenting is a person cannot hope to keep up with the 'adjustment' made to the 'modified rules', the rule below would apply to all 10 Commandments, good luck lol.
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
The Pit is not the eternal home of the fallen angels, the Beast was from there so he could be sent to the lake, Satan had to 'go to the prepared place' (Enoch's prophecy) before he could be sent to the lake and that is when he and all remaining fallen angels are released from the pit for their 'day of judgement', the 'children' there would be the resurrected 6 fingered giants of the OT, pre and post flood.
they cried out,
What have we to do with thee,
thou Son of God?
art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
The lake is their next destination, men can follow if they so wish, sin after seeing Gods face (Great White Throne) and you'll get there real quick. These are the laws that governed the world until the 10 Commandments, Satan broke 2, a liar and a murderer, fallen angels had children out of wedlock so they are whoremongers.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
But the fearful,
and the abominable,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
The hell for men is even in the OT when Satan is called Lucifer, same place without the chains mentioned, the mocking is the same.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell,
to the sides of the pit.
They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee,
and consider thee,
Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,
that did shake kingdoms;
16:30 outcome of being judged.
That is what takes place in your own reference that sends men to hell (compared to the lake). The Nations came to be under the 2 Laws when Peter started to teach Gentiles about the kingdom of God. Re:1 determines who God is going to put under judgment , the 7 churches have sheep and goats in each one and on the day the 7th trump sounds they are judged according to the relationships described in those 7 letters.
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory,
and all the holy angels with him,
then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations:
and he shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Jer:25:26: And all the kings of the north, far and near, one with another, and all the kingdoms of the world, which are upon the face of the earth: and the king of Sheshach shall drink after them.
A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth;
for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations,
he will plead with all flesh;
he will give them that are wicked to the sword,
saith the LORD.
Thus saith the LORD of hosts,
evil shall go forth from nation to nation,
and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented,
they shall be dung upon the ground.
This is unlike the 200M that 4 fallen angels manifest into in the 6th trump, those bones are gathered in Eze:39 and buried in a valley created in Zec:14 and that holds the river in Eze:47. Those bones are resurrected at the time Satan is released and they do end up in the fiery lake. For men the ones alive at that time are in glorified bodies (immortality being one sign) they can travel through our heaven to get to the 3rd heaven. The breath of life for everybody else is already there and it has been since they died, their 'breath of like' is what appears before God and after being a given a pardon (the last act of judgment, the first act put them in the grave to begin with, that is when their punishment began, only a very few things are eternal with God. This earth was made 'good' it was not made perfect, God does not make something eternal that is not perfect. The most extreme example is the not allowing angels to marry and have children. For Angelic beings a sin means the fiery lake, angelic being are not perfected until they are ready to enter their 'new heaven', being perfected God could then allow them to be married and have a child and since they are 'perfected' there is no possibility that their child could end up in the fiery lake.
The new earth will see perfected people at the very start, the ones alive for the last 1,000 years of this earth will be immortal men who enter being freshly resurrected and 1,000 years later are qualified to be Priests and Kings before God. Their flock will be the ones who were not alive for the 1,000 years and when New Jerusalem descends to the new earth the 'breath of life' will be there for the ones called 'the rest' in re:20
For as the new heavens and the new earth,
which I will make,
shall remain before me,
saith the LORD,
so shall your seed and your name remain.
17:00 eternal punishment
Only the fiery lake has an open-ended time limit. Any other punishment has a set start time and a set end time. Today it would be the 'blind Jews' who are under punishment, that blindness is lifted on the day the 7th trump sounds and on that day everybody in Eze:37 is physically resurrected to bodily life in the same state Jesus was in the morning of His resurrection, raised but not glorified. Jesus went to God for that, the ones that are destined to be on earth for the 1,000 years will get that at the river in Eze:47. The 'house' in that chapter is the 'house of prayer' that Jesus will build as part of the 'quake' in Zec:14.
The 12 Tribes are resurrected on site and the 144,000 come from the mountain where Moses and Elias appeared. The wicked Gentiles were gathered and brought for a feast for the fowl and beasts of the field. The ones that remain alive walk to Jerusalem and they witness the destruction along the way, that will be the first of 1,000 feasts of the tabernacle that they will attend. Both groups will then leave earth at the time they witness fire from God in Heaven sending Satan to the lake. Their 'new location' will be the place called 'new Jerusalem' as described in Re:21 and 22. That will be their eternal home and it comes 'pre-built' so the building of houses in the later part of Isa:65 is something that takes place outside the walls of the city and that requires more people and the only ones available are 'the rest' in Re:20.
It also works out that the ones living inside the city have a static population for eternity, the ones living outside grow up by being born in the flesh and 120 years later they are given 'glorification' meaning they have an 'immortal body' (able to live without food) From the age of 20 to 120 they marry and have 100 children and once judged to not be a sinner at 120 they no longer have children. They are eternal beings (like all flesh in the new earth) in that like Adam and Eve they have to eat to remain alive, at 120 they are called 'old man' and they stay at that state for eternity in the role of 'grand-parent' to the new babies that their 100 children have. Their life will require visits to new Jerusalem and the 'hosts' have done the 'same thing' for 1,000 times at least during their 'training period'. They will teach the person during the 20 -120 age all they need to know to make it into the 'old-man' group. The size of the whole 'new earth' is the same size of the 'old heaven'. The new heaven for the holy Angels is the 3rd heaven where the Great White Throne is located. New Jerusalem is a cube measuring 1500 miles per side, that is a specific ratio to Ezekiel's temple so whatever that ratio is it will be applied to the dimensions of this earth. Say it is 200X, that would mean the 25,000 mile circumference would be multiplied by that same factor. Space for an ever increasing population is not going to be an issue.
18:40 Sodom and Gommorah
The eternal fire that destroyed those places is the same one that will destroy Satan's Babylon, the difference being men witness it without dieing. The 3rd time that fire is witnessed id when Satan and the fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake and this time 'the living witnesses' are inside the fire.
The fire for Sodom was nor even about 'cleaning the specific place up'. It was God showing Christ how to use the fire that He will use in the verse below, even the Son of God is shown how to do things, another example is Christ witnessed God make 'this earth', after that Christ would have made all the 'other worlds in the heavens' (planets but without life)
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment,
that great city Babylon,
that mighty city!
for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth;
and my delights were with the sons of men.
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.
Re: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #7
MHz, I'm happy to discuss universalism (if I've correctly understood that as what you're advocating), but whether due to my own limitations or for some other reason, I'm unable to follow your post.
Here's what would be helpful to me, if you are interested in my thoughts on what you have to say. Please pick one text and explain the position you think it advocates, and let's discuss that before we try and digest dozens all at once.
Re: Chris Date vs. Joshua Whipps 5 years, 10 months ago #8
I don't mean to come off as so so rude but to be completely honest, I understood one thing that you were saying and the rest just came off as a scizophrenic rant. It sounds almost as if you were completely unaware of what conditionalism is... I'm sorry if that sounds a little bit rude but it bothers me that you would come and post on forum in order to promote your universalist heresy without any idea of what the forum is about!
Here is what I understood (I think) of your universalist drivel. When the sin debt required is payed off, then is further punishment required? I would say no, but I don't think that the sin debt being payed requires that the sinner would be given eternal life especially when the bible very very clearly teaches a second death. God is free to do with those people what He wills and through His Holy Spirit He says so explicitly in His Holy scripture.
Romans 9:21 " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? "
Now, If I came off as rude I'm sorry, it's not because I dislike you as a person or think little of you as a person, but I do hold contempt for Universalism because it denigrates and leads people away from believing the gospel of our Lord, namely that he died as a sacrifice for the sins of the people who believe in Him so that we may have eternal life as children of God. A doctrine that teaches that there are other routes to salvation, that we can pay for our own sin dept and achieve salvation through any means other then the cross is a false religion opposed to what our Lord said when He said in John 14:6 "I am The Way, the Truth, and The Life. No man comes to the father but through me"
One more thing... don't do drugs. Especially if you are going to say something about God in public. No matter what those Rastafarians say, it is not a good idea to mix religion and ganja.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.
- Isaac Watts
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