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The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10
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TOPIC: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years, 8 months ago #3434

  • giles
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I realise I have now stressed the same point (the distinction between image and interpretation) several times in this thread but it can't be stressed enough in my view. If we don't take note of the angel's own interpretation of the vision there's no hope whatsoever of understanding it.

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years, 7 months ago #3435

  • giles
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Aha! I find Chris has written on Revelation elsewhere on this site. If you google "Rethinking Hell" and "20:10" you should be able to find the essays.

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years, 7 months ago #3436

  • eternal
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Thanks Giles.

Rev. 18 is somewhat helpful I would think as well. Throughout that passage, the concept of "torment" and destruction are woven in and out seamlessly, as though torment describes the death and vice versa.

Vs. 7 "torment and mourning"
Vs. 8 death, mourning. famine; burned with fire
Vs. 9-10 smoke of torment/burning
Vs. 14 "passed away from you" (vs. 11-13 spells this loss out)
Vs. 15 "torment"
Vs. 17 "laid waste"
Vs. 19 "laid waste"
Vs. 21-23 "not be found any longer" (repeated)

"Torment" is the difficult word, which appears to have the concept of a miserable end in mind.

When we consider that the beast, death, harlot, hades all are said to be destroyed, even when the word "torment" is used, it becomes quite clear that it must not be used in an enduring sense of miserable, persistent existence, but rather to connote a miserable end.

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years, 7 months ago #3437

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Absolutely. The torment of Babylon must be metaphorical as cities can't be tormented. One might say its a metaphor for the eternal torment of the citizens of Babylon but that concedes that it is metaphorical. And the text seems to teach that it's a metaphor for Babylon never being found again. I think if Revelation was the only book in scripture sound hermeneutics would still lead to a conditionalist conclusion.

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years, 7 months ago #3438

  • giles
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Incidentally, whilst I differ from Chris Date by affirming that Rev 20:10 represents a different aspect of the beast to that foregrounded in Daniel that doesn't mean I consider his insight about the Daniel/Revelation parallel valueless. The beast may have more than one aspect (I count three, a kingdom, a demonic king and a human king) but it would be odd if different aspects of the beast suffered different fates. So if the Kingdom is destroyed in Daniel we might expect that the demonic and human kings to be destroyed also (as Rev 17:8,11 confirm). It's the same principle of consistency that leads me to say that Satan, the beast and the false prophet in 20:10 are beings of like character and thus three demons rather than one demon and two human beings. And a reason why I think all thrown into the lake of fire suffer the same fate as death.

Re: The Conditionalist Answer to Revelation 20:10 2 years ago #3874

  • eternal
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Ok. I think I finally get it. Help me out here.

The word "torment" in Rev. 20:10 is basanizō. While often used to describe some sort of torment, it is used a couple of times in respects to what the waves of a lake does:

But the boat was already a long distance from the land, battered by the waves; for the wind was contrary (Matthew 14:24).

Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He *came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them (Mark 6:48).


This is a very useful usage and insight. The waves are knocking around the boats. The boat is being battered around. Even in the Mark passage, their straining is a direct result of what the water is doing, it is forceful and knocking them around.

This is what rough waters do. They knock things around. So when John sees a LAKE of fire, and corpses are thrown into it, they are being knocked around forever. That is the imagery. Not a torture chamber. But the waves battering around dead bodies for eternity.


And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be battered (by the waves) day and night forever and ever.


Thanks to those who have contributed to this thread, because you've really helped me on this.
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