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Chris Date - Preterism- Question- resurrection
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TOPIC: Chris Date - Preterism- Question- resurrection

Chris Date - Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 10 months ago #2592

  • Givemhell
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I think that Gary Demar and Dee dee Warren are correct in interpreting matthew 24 as being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple but I'm having trouble with Paul's eschatology. Paul writes about the resurrection in 1 thessalonians 4 as if it were going to happen in his day and uses language that parallels the olivet discourse but I don't buy the hyperpreterist interpretation of the resurrection in 70ad where souls go from hades to heaven, especially since I am not a dualist.

Did Paul misunderstand the olivet discourse? Did he mistakenly think that the resurrection was going to be in the first century?


I think that prophecies can have more than one fulfillment but this doesn't really satisfy me when it comes to 1 thessalonians 4 since Paul seemed to be expecting the resurrection to occur in the lifetime of his audience.

I know that this is a forum about annihilationism but for me preterism has had a huge impact on how i see the arguments against annihilationism, especially the ones that come from Christ's teachings in the gospels and the book of Revelation.

You should consider doing an episode of rethinking hell that focuses on how an acceptance of partial preterism results in the dismissal of most of the arguments for eternal conscious torment. I'm not the only orthodox preterist who understands matthew 25, matthew 13, and many other parables to be speaking about the impending judgement of jerusalem and that the references to Gehenna connect to prophecies concerning the Assyrian and Babylonian sieges of Jerusalem.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
Last Edit: 3 years, 8 months ago by Givemhell.

Re: Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 10 months ago #2593

  • Singalphile
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Givemhell wrote:
Paul writes about the resurrection in 1 thessalonians 4 as if it were going to happen in his day and uses language that parallels the olivet discourse ...

Did he mistakenly think that the resurrection was going to be in the first century?


I favor the partial (or non-hyper) preterist view, too, and for years when I held the default traditional view of hell. I'm not sure that one had anything to do with the other, in my case.

I would just say that in 1 Thess 4 and 5, Paul seems to avoid coming right out and saying anything about "times and the epochs", which is apparently what his readers had asked him about. His language does strongly suggest to me that he considered it possible, if not likely, that Christ would return in their time. If there was something that the Son didn't know about such things, then it would be even more likely that Paul didn't know, though he might have had opinions, which possibly changed later in his life, and which he might have shared with those whom he taught, outside of the letters we have.
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.
Last Edit: 3 years, 10 months ago by Singalphile.

Re: Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 10 months ago #2598

  • Givemhell
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When I read 1 Thessalonians 5 it sounds to me like he is using language that parallels the olivet discourse. He talks about it coming like a "thief in the night" and warns against "drunkeness". This is the same kind of language that Christ used when he talked about the timing of the impending destruction of Jerusalem. There are also parallels in 1 Thessalonians 4 and in many places where Paul talks about the eschaton he uses language that parallels the olivet discourse.

While Jesus didn't know the day or the hour, He certainly knew the season and gave several time indicators and was specific about whom the judgement would come upon.




Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
"
Matthew 23:
"29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,[f] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Lament over Jerusalem

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”"

Matthew 24:
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.



If you follow the pronouns in 1 thessalonians 1 to 1 thessalonians 4 it is pretty obvious to me that Paul thinks that they will still be alive during the resurrection.

Do you see why this is bothering me? It sounds like Paul is misunderstanding the Olivet Discourse and thinks that he will be alive for the resurrection.




It would seem to fit with Revelation 20 which sounds like it is saying that there will be two resurrection, a resurrection of the first century martyrs and then a resurrection at the very end.

"4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

To be honest, I think that this is super confusing but I really would like to understand it.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts

Re: Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 10 months ago #2604

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Givemhell wrote:
... Do you see why this is bothering me? It sounds like Paul is misunderstanding the Olivet Discourse and thinks that he will be alive for the resurrection.
....
To be honest, I think that this is super confusing but I really would like to understand it.

I think I do, yes. Many such things are not all clear to me. What I've picked up from others is that being unsure is not necessarily the same as being confused. If there's not enough info to know what Paul did or didn't know or think about something at the time he wrote that letter, then I guess it's not that important for us. So I move on to something else (maybe 1 Thess 5:12:22 for example, which I'm looking at now b/c of looking up what you mentioned). But that's my sort of personality, I guess.

I see two or maybe three similar phrases in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 5 (though not all very similar). I agree that when he wrote that letter he might have thought that some of them (not all) could or would still be alive when Christ returned. "Whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him," he wrote.

There are plenty of smart Christians out there who have good thoughts on this, I'm sure. Here's an article, which you may have read, since it came up near the top of my search: www.tektonics.org/esch/paulend.php
It's looks pretty good and interesting (though I didn't read it all).
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.

Re: Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 9 months ago #2614

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Unfortunately, I don't think this article answers the question. I understand that it is possible that Paul might just have been confused but the fact that he references the olivet discourse seems to indicate that he thought that the olivet discourse dealt with the resurrection and the olivet discourse itself says that that generation would not pass away before everything he mentioned would be fulfilled and really Paul sounds to me as if he is saying that it was coming within his lifetime.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts

Re: Preterism- Question- resurrection 3 years, 9 months ago #2629

  • Givemhell
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I really wonder what people like Christ Date or Glenn Peoples think about this issue.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
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