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"Where there's smoke, there's fire..."
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TOPIC: "Where there's smoke, there's fire..."

"Where there's smoke, there's fire..." 2 years ago #3864

  • webb
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Actually the full quote goes something like this:

"Where there's smoke, there's fire, and where there is fire, there is something to be burned--namely the bodies of the resurrected lost."

I have had this saying tossed at me in relation to Rev. 14:11, as though in the person's mind it was the ultimate "gotcha." I always find it tough to reply to what is put forward as an ultra-simple and self-evident statement with a complicated explanation. It invites the person to nod and grin, as though to say, "See, you have to jump through all these hoops to try to explain why the obvious truth is not true."

I've decided (and I'm probably the 100,000th person who thought of this) that next time I'll just reply,

"I think you just proved that it's impossible to put a candle out."

And just stand there while they think about why I said that.
The following user(s) said Thank You: pilgrim

Re: "Where there's smoke, there's fire..." 2 years ago #3865

webb wrote:
Actually the full quote goes something like this:

"Where there's smoke, there's fire, and where there is fire, there is something to be burned--namely the bodies of the resurrected lost."

I have had this saying tossed at me in relation to Rev. 14:11, as though in the person's mind it was the ultimate "gotcha." I always find it tough to reply to what is put forward as an ultra-simple and self-evident statement with a complicated explanation. It invites the person to nod and grin, as though to say, "See, you have to jump through all these hoops to try to explain why the obvious truth is not true."

I've decided (and I'm probably the 100,000th person who thought of this) that next time I'll just reply,

"I think you just proved that it's impossible to put a candle out."

And just stand there while they think about why I said that.

I just have to say, though I never have heard the argument you mentioned, the comeback is absolutely brilliant!

BTW, their whole argument is based on a false premise. There is not always fire where there is smoke. It's just a cute saying. I've seen a huge plume of smoke fairly close to where I am and drive there to watch the fire, only to find out it's already been put out. Still plenty of smoke, though.
Last Edit: 2 years ago by Kentucky Reign.

Re: "Where there's smoke, there's fire..." 1 year, 11 months ago #3899

Kentucky Reign wrote:
webb wrote:
Actually the full quote goes something like this:

"Where there's smoke, there's fire, and where there is fire, there is something to be burned--namely the bodies of the resurrected lost."

I have had this saying tossed at me in relation to Rev. 14:11, as though in the person's mind it was the ultimate "gotcha." I always find it tough to reply to what is put forward as an ultra-simple and self-evident statement with a complicated explanation. It invites the person to nod and grin, as though to say, "See, you have to jump through all these hoops to try to explain why the obvious truth is not true."

I've decided (and I'm probably the 100,000th person who thought of this) that next time I'll just reply,

"I think you just proved that it's impossible to put a candle out."

And just stand there while they think about why I said that.

I just have to say, though I never have heard the argument you mentioned, the comeback is absolutely brilliant!

BTW, their whole argument is based on a false premise. There is not always fire where there is smoke. It's just a cute saying. I've seen a huge plume of smoke fairly close to where I am and drive there to watch the fire, only to find out it's already been put out. Still plenty of smoke, though.


Well, not only that, but I fail to see what this verse has to do with the final fate in Gehenna, anyway. This passage does not seem to be referring to a punishment taking place in Gehenna at all, but to people on Earth who were against Christ being tormented by the glory of His presence, whether by actual fire and brimstone or in a figurative sense to stress how tormenting His glorious presence must be to those who hold the antithesis of Christ. And again, if there is no sense of time in eternity like I have heard ECT proponents claim to back up their points of how awful eternal punishment is (therefore apparently it is the fear of that that should compel you to get saved; completely missing the point of loving God and believing in Christ in my opinion), then why does the passage use temporal words like "day or night" here? So it sounds a lot to me like the passage is saying that, however long this lasts, in a finite time they will never be able to rest all day or all night, trying in vain to hide from the glory of Jesus Christ.

And of course, we all know the answer to "the smoke rises forever and ever". IT'S IMAGERY OF DESTRUCTION. HOW HARD IS IT?

I remember trying to calmly offer this seemingly perfectly logical explanation to someone at Christian Forums once who used the infamous Rev.14 passage and the one at the end in Rev.20 where the Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet to claim ECT as irrefutable doctrine, and of course I was told that I was just trying to twist things around to be all nice and caring and liberal by adhering to the oh-so-heretical punishment of literal destruction and second death. I know; how dare I paint God in a light of just eliminating unbelievers and barring them from eternal life rather than much more justly torturing them in fire for eternity with no mercy, right?

Of course, what most ECT proponents fail to understand when they are debating with you about the validity of CI, is that CI has much more many straightforward-sounding verses for "proof" than their doctrine does, and they need to twist the CI-sounding verses a lot further around to make them fit ECT than vice versa. It is by far NOT just emotional reasoning that our adherence to CI is based on, trying to make God out to be "nicer".
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