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So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan?
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TOPIC: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan?

So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3970

  • Mcgragor
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I see the CI position and it has some great points, but what about the fallen angels and satan? It would seem they are tormented forever. If that is true, the whole nature of God arguments used for CI are extremely weakened and it would strengthen the ECT position somewhat.

When Jesus cast the demons into the swine they clearly asked Him if He was going to torment them before the time. They could have just as easily said "Are you going to destroy us before the time".

Also, just for clarification do we know what the Greek and or Hebrews would have understood by the word torment?

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3971

Mcgragor wrote:
I see the CI position and it has some great points, but what about the fallen angels and satan? It would seem they are tormented forever. If that is true, the whole nature of God arguments used for CI are extremely weakened and it would strengthen the ECT position somewhat.

When Jesus cast the demons into the swine they clearly asked Him if He was going to torment them before the time. They could have just as easily said "Are you going to destroy us before the time".

Also, just for clarification do we know what the Greek and or Hebrews would have understood by the word torment?

There are dogs, humans and angels. There are different rules for each. For dogs, monogamy is not required nor expected.

The Bible speaks to humans, for humans, about our Creator and our relationship with Him. Anything regarding the fate of satan, animals, trees, etc. due to their relationship with him is a completely different matter.

Satan is coming at this from a different perspective, not to mention knowledge of many hidden (to us) things about God, just as we are coming at it from a different perspective than our dogs.

I leave it at that and accept that satan's fate is different than that of the lost humans.

In fact, to use an analogy, imagine the lake of fire is a lake of water and satan and his demons are white porcelain cubes, while lost humans are sugar cubes. Both may be thrown into the lake, but it was only designed for one. And that one sinks to the bottom while the sugar cubes dissolve. One wouldn't suggest that since a certain thing happens to the one that it must therefore happen to the other.
Last Edit: 2 years ago by Kentucky Reign.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3972

  • Mcgragor
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Great philosophical argument KR, but do the scriptures match?

Plus, one could argue just as easily since humans seem to get the same fate in the LOF as demons that if it is proven with scripture that they (fallen angels/satan) get tormented forever, it would hypothetically back the ECT position on some of the disputed verses.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3973

  • webb
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McGragor,

I'd argue that (1) based on the nexus of Isa. 24:21-23 and Mt. 25:31-48 and Rev. 19:14-20:3, rebellious angels and humans are to be pictured as being subjected to imprisonment together at Christ's coming in glory, and (2) based on the nexus of Isa. 27:1-5 and Rev. 20:7-10, rebellious angels and humans are to be pictured as being annihilated together after they serve that long period of co-imprisonment together and are released on probation, only to re-offend. Jesus pictures imprisonment in the underworld as intensely miserable for humans, so presumably angelic beings feel the same way about it (on this see Ps. 82, esp. v. 5). In other words, the demons expressing fear of torment (Gr. βασανίζω {basanizō, Strong's #g928}) are not necessarily thinking about some form of final punishment, whether that be annihilation or endless torment.

The strongest arguments against ECT in Revelation come from observing the careful way in which John in Rev. 14:10-11; 19:3; 20:10 uses language of endless burning to call forth Isaiah 34:10-11 as the prophetic background. To put it in one sentence, John trains his readers to interpret figurative language consistently from one passage to the next in Revelation, and since neither Rev. 19:3 nor Isa. 34:9-10 are intended to be nor capable of being understood literally as to their temporal aspect, neither are Rev. 14:10-11 and 20:10.

For a thorough and systematic explanation of these principles in the context of broader biblical eschatology, I recommend my new book The Bad Place.
Last Edit: 2 years ago by webb. Reason: straighten out format code

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3974

  • Timothew
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Mcgragor wrote:
Great philosophical argument KR, but do the scriptures match?

Plus, one could argue just as easily since humans seem to get the same fate in the LOF as demons that if it is proven with scripture that they (fallen angels/satan) get tormented forever, it would hypothetically back the ECT position on some of the disputed verses.


While Webb and KR gave great answers to your objection, I will try to offer some assistance to your argument. Since rocks are not destroyed when they are put into a raging fire, then humans must also not be destroyed when they are put into a raging fire.

(I guess that wasn't as much help as I intended, since humans are not rocks...or demons)
Τιμοθέῳ γνησίῳ τέκνῳ ἐν πίστει
Tim Wiesner
Last Edit: 2 years ago by Timothew.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 2 years ago #3975

  • Singalphile
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I agree with Kentucky Reign (and Timothew). Demons, angels, the devil, they are largely a mystery to us. It is reasonable to think that they will be dealt with differently then, just as they are dealt with differently now.

Revelation can reasonably be understood as saying that Satan (and possibly demonic powers of or behind the "beast" (evil gov't?) and the "false prophet" (evil/false religion?), depending on how you understand those entities) will in fact be tormented forever in the lake of fire (Rev 20:10), whereas humans are said to die "the second death" in the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Different fates.

Also, in Matthew 25, Jesus says that "the eternal fire" is "prepared for the devil and his angels", though they are otherwise completely unmentioned in that parable. That might tell us something about the main purpose for "the eternal fire".

As for the question in the thread title, "what is 'torment' for fallen angels/satan?" That's an interesting question. But due to our lack of nearly any definite knowledge about those things, I would have to say, I don't know.

I hope that webb is right. If the devil and his angels are beyond hope of help, then I would hope they'd be destroyed. The idea of locking them up and leaving them to suffer (whatever that means) frankly reminds me of a movie villain (but I speak out of ignorance).
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.
Last Edit: 2 years ago by Singalphile.
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