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So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan?
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TOPIC: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan?

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3976

Mcgragor wrote:
Great philosophical argument KR, but do the scriptures match?

Plus, one could argue just as easily since humans seem to get the same fate in the LOF as demons that if it is proven with scripture that they (fallen angels/satan) get tormented forever, it would hypothetically back the ECT position on some of the disputed verses.


Not me. But that is just me.

I actually got weary of, when debating ECT vs CI with traditionalists, each "new" debater starting off with Revelation. This book is so rife with symbolism that I do not see it as a major source of ANY religious viewpoint. It is amazing how much of it parallels existing scripture, and how much of it just adds confusion to people who are not steeped in studying it WITH AN OPEN MIND. How many times, really, must I point out that the churches are not really lamp stands and the second death is not really a lake of fire?

When I was a member of AG, I had been taught that Revelation 4 was the rapture. But when I finally studied it, I realized that if anything represented the rapture, it would be revelation 7 after the sealing of the 144k. And the clutching at straws (choosing Rev 4) simply to support your pre-existing position never cuts it for me, no matter who is doing it with whatever part of the bible (including me).

This is why I used the cubes made of different materials for my analogy. It is just plain dumb (there, I said it) to apply the EFFECT of what happens to Satan to humans. We are a different being. We have different sensibilities. We have less knowledge of God and eternity than Satan. Christ died for even the lost. Christ did NOT die for Satan.

We are made of different material.

I could go on and on, but unless there is a LOT of compelling scripture outside of Revelation to support ECT of humans, I can't look to one or two scriptures in Revelation and base a major doctrine on it.

And the more I study the bible's teaching on the fate of the lost, the more repulsed I am by the ECT position. It is not a benign error. It causes great harm to Christianity. We have way too many goats* in our churches hedging their bets. Every time I think about it I am reminded of the warnings in the bible about leaven. I literally see ECT teaching and the goats* it brings into our churches as the "bad" leaven that is ruining not only churches but the lives and testimony of true believers*, and giving anti-Christians hugely effective ammunition to fight the Gospel.

I no longer take an "agree to disagree" position on this. It's too important. And I'm not being dogmatic any more than I am being dogmatic when I say the sun sets in the west or sharia law is incompatible with the constitution of the United States. Anyone who disagrees is simply ignorant of the facts. Yes, sometimes one side is actually right and the other wrong.

Meanwhile, I'm completely rebuilding, from the ground up, my take on the "trinity". When Jesus said "I and the father are one" I now interpret it the same as when I say "I and my wife are one.". Suddenly all those terribly confusing scriptures regarding the relationship between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit became crystal clear when I no longer viewed them as a single being. I now see them more as separate agents of a single agency. But I'm not married to that position yet. I have more studying to do.

Listening to the bible for hours a day for months on end has caused my viewpoint on a LOT of beliefs I've held for decades to be shattered. There are many epiphanies coming at me from all directions. Some are much simpler issues than this, but they are all very exciting and revealing. And suddenly so much scripture that was hard to take or understand becomes clear and informative.

BTW, when arguing stuff like this I'm a little like the Rain Man at the airport. I start off "nice", but depending on the circumstances and the confidence I have in my position, I sometimes (but rarely) ramp it up as he did - if I feel it is required to at least get people to THINK, for crying out loud. When debating ECT adherents, it is important to be courteous and thoughtful, but sometimes you just have to turn over a few tables.

*Note: I'm not judging any one individual. What I am saying is that the result of the teaching will naturally result in bringing in a lot of the "scared and gullible" that never truly choose to follow Christ out of love, but out of fear of what happens if they don't. He's pretty clear in His word that the latter he does not know, even if they cast out demons in His name.

And I think the church is, in fact, going through a purification as I type this. There is a lot of commotion about people leaving the church. However, I think what is happening is that a lot of goats are leaving the church. That is a good thing.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3977

BTW, That rant above is not aimed at you at all. It just flowed from my thoughts that welled up when I read your post. It got me thinking about a LOT of stuff and, truth be told, barely scratches the surface.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3978

  • Mcgragor
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Thanks KR for clarifying, I was beginning to wonder what I could have said to get you revved up, as my post was one of inquisitiveness not attack.

The made of different things argument I would struggle with because I am a big "Scripture Alone" proponent, and when Jesus was being asked the question about marriage in heaven, He said we would be like the angels.

I realize context would be in the sense that angels don't marry, but one could argue we are spiritual beings at that point and therefore similar to the angels. I would not make a dogmatic argument on this, but looking at what evidence we do have, I'm thinking the "made of different things" really couldn't be a solid argument either way.

In reference to my original question, I didn't intend for it to be what will the tormenting consist of for fallen angels, although I should have been more specific, my main point is will it be ECT for them?

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3979

  • webb
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McGragor said,
looking at what evidence we do have, I'm thinking the "made of different things" really couldn't be a solid argument either way.

I agree. Humans and angels, though created with differing principles of embodiment, are alike brought into being as offspring of God and are given the responsibility of actively serving the creation. The concept of imprisonment--metaphorical though it may be--conveys the idea that rebellious and unrepentant humans and angels will alike be removed from all effectual participation in God's creation, because when given freedom to interact with the creation they did so in a destructive and unjust way rather than serving the needs of its vulnerable ones (again, Ps. 82, Mt. 25).

We are not told in what consists the torment of the imprisoned ones, but it stands to reason that having all embodied agency taken away would be painful for those beings, angelic or human, whose main enjoyment lay in expressing power.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3980

  • Mcgragor
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Thanks Webb, appreciate your input.

Re: So what is "torment" for fallen angels/satan? 1 year, 8 months ago #3981

Mcgragor wrote:
Thanks KR for clarifying, I was beginning to wonder what I could have said to get you revved up, as my post was one of inquisitiveness not attack.

The made of different things argument I would struggle with because I am a big "Scripture Alone" proponent, and when Jesus was being asked the question about marriage in heaven, He said we would be like the angels.

I realize context would be in the sense that angels don't marry, but one could argue we are spiritual beings at that point and therefore similar to the angels. I would not make a dogmatic argument on this, but looking at what evidence we do have, I'm thinking the "made of different things" really couldn't be a solid argument either way.

In reference to my original question, I didn't intend for it to be what will the tormenting consist of for fallen angels, although I should have been more specific, my main point is will it be ECT for them?

I was just listening to that scripture yesterday (being "like" the angels). I most definitely seeing it as WHOLLY contextual. It's telling us that angels are not sexual creatures. That is all it is telling us.

This matters to me because I see this where the ECT proponents take our being made in "God's image" to mean we have an eternal soul that God can't destroy, yet they don't see us as in God's image when we are sexual creatures.

I suppose one could argue, if they throw out context, that man on earth is sexual and, since he is in God's image, God is sexual, but after we leave our bodies, we are not sexual and Angels are not sexual.

But it really is a very simple analogy. Angels are not sexual and in that way we will be like them.

Often, as we discuss interpretation of scripture I'm reminded of a scene in The Life of Brian. Many people are chasing him because they want to worship him as god. As he runs away, he loses one of his sandals. The pursuing crowd reaches the lost sandal, forms a careful circle around it, and one of them picks it up and says something like, "He has removed his sandal. It is a sign that we are all to remove a sandal so that we can be more in contact with the earth!" Or something like that.

I think all of us (yes, even me) get so focused on the forest that we miss the trees. We over-complicate His word in an attempt to squeeze out every ounce of meaning or possible meaning to the point where it can support any position one cares to invent.

There was a homosexual pastor visiting my workplace in Seattle a couple of decades ago that made the argument that Sodom was destroyed because of poor hospitality.
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