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"In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing..
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TOPIC: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing..

"In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3983

  • Mcgragor
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A question as I study this out...

In the "weeping and gnashing" scriptures the reference is that they will be "in there". So they are in the fire or furnace when this takes place. This I think leans toward ECT, but curious as to what you all think.

I always try to look at how something could have been said differently, if indeed it meant something different.

In this case, Jesus could have said "and before the fire" or "while waiting for the judgment of fire"...Instead, he clearly says "In there".

Thanks

Re: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3984

Mcgragor wrote:
A question as I study this out...

In the "weeping and gnashing" scriptures the reference is that they will be "in there". So they are in the fire or furnace when this takes place. This I think leans toward ECT, but curious as to what you all think.

I always try to look at how something could have been said differently, if indeed it meant something different.

In this case, Jesus could have said "and before the fire" or "while waiting for the judgment of fire"...Instead, he clearly says "In there".

Thanks

A few things:
1. Think about who Jesus was talking to. How would they interpret what he was saying?
2. Weeping indicates pain or sorrow. Gnashing of teeth indicates anger (lots of OT examples).
3. Is it necessary to discriminate between the few seconds before someone is thrown in and the few seconds after they are thrown in?

The thing is, if you are willing to take Jesus' comments as conversational and at face value, it is easy to interpret this for what it is. People are going to be thrown in and it's going to hurt and there is going to be a lot of anger. How long will that last? Well, how long would it last if someone threw you into a river of liquid lava? Probably not very long.

Whenever I see folks trying to twist the plain meaning of words in the bible (and again, this is not about you), I have to ask what reason they have for doing it. A classic example is a few years ago I was discussing with some devout Catholics on the internet about Jesus' brothers. The bible is pretty clear and plain about it (even when using the original greek). However, these guys insisted that it could also be translated "cousins", even though the context was pretty clear. But then I discovered that one of their key teachings is that Mary never had sex. If these were Jesus' brothers, it sort of nixed that idea. So here we are...

Same thing here. If there was no such thing as ECT and I was living in that culture back then and personally heard Jesus say those words, my natural understanding would be, "well, sure, you throw someone into a fire they are gonna be in a lot of pain, and if it was against their will, they are gonna be ticked. So sure, there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth for a few seconds."

If there is plenty of scripture to support the position that Jesus was saying these folks would be weeping in pain and gnashing their teeth for an eternity, I'd change my position.

It would also be clear that the bible is lying when it says He loves them while they were yet sinners.
Last Edit: 1 year, 8 months ago by Kentucky Reign.

Re: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3985

  • Timothew
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Mcgragor wrote:
A question as I study this out...

In the "weeping and gnashing" scriptures the reference is that they will be "in there". So they are in the fire or furnace when this takes place. This I think leans toward ECT, but curious as to what you all think.

I always try to look at how something could have been said differently, if indeed it meant something different.

In this case, Jesus could have said "and before the fire" or "while waiting for the judgment of fire"...Instead, he clearly says "In there".

Thanks


Actually, he doesn't say "In there".
Luke 13:28 NIV
There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
Matthew 13:42
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but it does say that they will be weeping and gnashing IN the furnace, and it also doesn't say that they will live forever in the furnace weeping and gnashing. Furnaces burn up what is thrown into them. It doesn't make sense that this furnace does the exact opposite of what furnaces do, and the passage doesn't ask us to believe that this furnace doesn't burn up what is put into it.
Τιμοθέῳ γνησίῳ τέκνῳ ἐν πίστει
Tim Wiesner

Re: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3986

  • Mcgragor
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Timothew,

I guess it depends on where you find it and maybe what version...I said "In there", but "In that place" is used in the ESV.

Matt 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt 13:41-42-The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Re: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3987

Mcgragor wrote:
Timothew,

I guess it depends on where you find it and maybe what version...I said "In there", but "In that place" is used in the ESV.

Matt 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matt 13:41-42-The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Don't forget context. Go to verse 40. It clarifies nicely. I can't speak for you, but if I had been there I would have interpreted 40-42 as "just as weeds are gathered and burned up, those spoken of in 41 & 42 will be done to likewise. And since they are sentient beings, it's gonna hurt while they have the ability to feel it.

I suppose where I'm coming from is that I am clearing my 32 acres of woods and meadows and I've trimmed a lot of trees. I throw the branches and other brush into a large pile and set 'em on fire. I've done this in the same spot for a few years now. There is about an inch of ash there because everything is, essentially "burned up". That being said, I've gotten my hand too close on a couple of occasions. It hurt. There was no weeping, but I did gnash my teeth at myself a bit.

I see Jesus' analogy as pretty straightforward. And I don't dwell on the length of time the people will be weeping and gnashing their teeth. Suffice it to say that they will be feeling great emotional pain and anger if nothing else. But the point is not the duration. And the duration is clarified by the analogy. They would be burned up in the fire unless they are made of some high temperature resistant material, of which they are not.

If Jesus had used a high temp metal in his analogy instead of weeds, I'd alter my position on this. Come to think of it, he does use that sometimes. Interestingly, the metal DOES survive as "good works" etc.

Hmmm...

Re: "In the fire" there will be weeping and gnashing.. 1 year, 8 months ago #3988

  • Mcgragor
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Thanks KR,

I think good points by you and Timothew. I'm just trying to be as fair as possible with what the text says--I believe some have said the "weeping and gnashing" is because they see what is coming to them.

My point here, is that they are in the furnace "weeping and gnashing" , which carries a more sinister connotation than just the fear of being thrown into the fire.

It it helps to understand my position, I don't believe this is a "literal" fire, but God's judgement depicted as such.

Whether this judgment is short lived or ETC I am torn, but plan on studying it out further.

One thing KR, and you alluded to it a bit, is the judgement on believers is also pictured as fire.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise master builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one must be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.
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