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Best argument for conditionalism?
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TOPIC: Best argument for conditionalism?

Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #411

  • Ssammoh4
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What would you say is the best argument for conditionalism?
Bible verses that I would like to see explained by a mortalist:

Revelations 20:14
Daniel 12:2
Revelations 14:10-11

Re: Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #415

  • Givemhell
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Welcome to the forum.

I personally believe that the best argument for conditionalism comes from the language of the bible. There are soooooooooooooooooo many verses that teach that the the wicked will face death, the "soul of the one who sins will die", that they will die "the second death", that they will be completely destroyed, completely consumed, that they will perish, that they will "be no more", that we come from the dust and will return to the dust, that the dead "know nothing", that there will be nothing left of them, etc. etc. etc.

In fact, there are so many verses that depict the death of the wicked in this way that it it would take me a very very very long time to post them all for you.

Moreover, traditionalists base their argument on a handful of verses in the New Testament that they say teach that the fate of the wicked is actually eternal torment but if you look up the parallel language in the Old Testament, we can see examples of what that language actually depicts and you can see when the Old Testament uses those phrases it refers to people or cities that were annihilated, such as Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. So, if you look into it, it becomes very clear that even the verses that the traditionalists use actually depict conditionalism.

So, for me this is the strongest argument.

However, other conditionalists might have a different opinion about which argument is the strongest because there are so many other strong arguments for conditionalism such as the argument against the natural immortality of the soul which argues that the bible does not teach that the soul is not naturally immortal but that immortality is something that is given by God to those who are saved and that the idea that soul is naturally immortal is a concept from Greek philosophy and not the bible.

Or perhaps they favor the argument from the idea that since Christ did not suffer for all of eternity in hell that His sacrifice would not have paid the punishment for sin if the punishment for sin was an eternity in hell.

Another good one that they might favor is the argument that it goes against the expressed character of God to eternally torment a human for a temporal crime.

They might supplement that argument with the further argument that if God has to eternally torture people then it can only be because Justice is never met. I can't imagine a God who is eternally bummed that there will never be Justice in an absolute, completed sense.

There are many good arguments aside from these as well and you might be interested in a lot of the material that is available for free such as the rethinkinghell.com podcast, or certain episodes of Dr. Glenn Peoples podcast "the beretta cast" or some episodes of the theopologetics podcast. There are also a few good debates that you can find that defend conditionalism on this website and there are plenty of really good articles as well.

Ok, here are a couple of the myriad verses that deal with the fate of the wicked. There are sooo many and I don't have forever so I'm just going to post a couple of them but I'm sure that it would be easy to find more if you have the time. Also, Glenn Peoples talked about this language argument on the last episode of rethinkinghell podcast. There is a link there on the front page.


Psalm 37:10 In just a little while, the wicked will be no more; though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

Psalm 49"14 Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd, and the upright shall rule over them in the morning. Their form shall be consumed in Sheol, with no place to dwell.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread,
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
for you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

Ecclesiastes 9:4 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ezekial 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psalm 1:6 ... but the way of the ungodly shall perish

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Psalm 92:7 ... shall be destroyed forever

Matthew 10:28b Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Greek: destroyed) ...

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death …

Philippians 3:19 whose end is "destruction" ...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ...

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12a There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Revelation 20:14 This is the second death...

What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
Last Edit: 5 years, 4 months ago by Givemhell.
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Re: Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #419

  • Timothew
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Hello Ssammoh4, I'm glad that you came over to this forum.

I think the bible is the best argument for conditionalism, followed by the nature of God.
But Mr. Givem already said that better than me.

I just wanted to welcome you here, I recognize you from another forum.

Tim
Τιμοθέῳ γνησίῳ τέκνῳ ἐν πίστει
Tim Wiesner
The following user(s) said Thank You: Givemhell

Re: Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #422

  • Chris Date
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Ssammoh4 wrote:
What would you say is the best argument for conditionalism?


Hi and welcome to the forums!

That's a tough question, because there's SOOOO much biblical evidence for conditionalism that it's hard to choose which is the best. I'll tell you that one of the things that convinced me most was that when examined closely, ALL of the traditional proof-texts actually favor conditionalism. Undying worms and unquenchable fire consume corpses; eternal fire reduces to ashes; and on and on it goes.

Lately, however, I've begun to wonder if perhaps the best evidence for conditionalism is the cross. Jesus bore the punishment we deserved, and which the unsaved will bear, and what was that? It was a violent death.

Re: Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #431

  • Timothew
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Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death.
If this means that the result of sin is that we will be separated from God and spend eternity in hell, then Romans 6:23 means the opposite of what it says. Conditionalism agrees with the bible and says "yes, the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Τιμοθέῳ γνησίῳ τέκνῳ ἐν πίστει
Tim Wiesner

Re: Best argument for conditionalism? 5 years, 4 months ago #448

  • Ssammoh4
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I'm not sure what I believe in. I do find the idea of conditionalism comforting to think about, but sometimes I find it hard to believe. Then again I also find the other two beliefs on this subject kind of hard to believe at times...

Givemhell wrote:
the language of the bible. There are soooooooooooooooooo many verses that teach that the the wicked will face death


the "soul of the one who sins will die", that they will die "the second death"

I've heard people say that this refers to a spiritual death. Also, Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Adam and Eve didn't die the day they ate from the tree. They lived long afterwards. So this verse must be referring to spiritual death.

that they will be completely destroyed

Destruction can mean a loss of well-being.

completely consumed

Consume can mean to destroy, which means the loss of well-being.

that they will perish

Perishing can mean destruction, which can mean a loss of well-being.

that they will "be no more"

THATS what I call a good argument for conditionalism

that we come from the dust and will return to the dust,

This can refer to the body

that the dead "know nothing"

This can refer to the fact that they don't know about anything that's going on. Dead people don't know if their kid fails a grade, or if their friend dyed their hair, or if a store goes out of business.

Or perhaps they favor the argument from the idea that since Christ did not suffer for all of eternity in hell that His sacrifice would not have paid the punishment for sin if the punishment for sin was an eternity in hell.

Not too crazy about this argument. Why would he have to suffer the same punishment as them to pay for their sins?

Another good one that they might favor is the argument that it goes against the expressed character of God to eternally torment a human for a temporal crime.

This sounds more like wishful thinking to me and hardly even counts as an argument. It doesn't even use scripture.

They might supplement that argument with the further argument that if God has to eternally torture people then it can only be because Justice is never met. I can't imagine a God who is eternally bummed that there will never be Justice in an absolute, completed sense.

I don't even see how that's an argument. Why wouldn't it be possible for justice to never be met?

Ezekial 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Again, it can mean spiritual death.

Psalm 1:6 ... but the way of the ungodly shall perish

Perish can mean destroy which means to make them lose their well-being

Psalm 92:7 ... shall be destroyed forever

Matthew 10:28b Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

John 3:16 ... whosoever believeth in him should not perish (Greek: destroyed) ...

Destroy can mean they lose their well-being

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death …

It can mean spiritual death.

Philippians 3:19 whose end is "destruction" ...

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ...

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition (Greek: destruction); but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

James 4:12a There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

...loss of well being

Revelation 20:14 This is the second death...

still can refer to spiritual death
Bible verses that I would like to see explained by a mortalist:

Revelations 20:14
Daniel 12:2
Revelations 14:10-11
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