Welcome, Guest
Username Password: Remember me

Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41
(1 viewing) (1) Guest

TOPIC: Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41

Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4723

  • Mark68
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: 0
There are two verses that make me anxious:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And:

Matthew 25: 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I think I can summarise the main point of the explanation on front website like this:

"They will be tormented forever; however they are not humans. Jesus says Gehenna (hell) was specifically made for Satan and demons ."

The way this looks to me is, if the wicked are thrown into the same place as the devil, the beast and false prophet, and if the devil, beast and false prophet are tormented forever, isn't the logical conclusion here that the wicked will also be tormented forever?

I realise it isn't actuall said that the wicked will be tormented day and night, but that's the logical conclusion I keep coming back to :/

I also cannot see how Ezekiel 10:7 (mentioned on the main front page) is evidence that fire is not meant for humans.

7 And a cherub stretched out his hand from between the cherubim to the fire that was between the cherubim, and took some of it and put it into the hands of the man clothed in linen, who took it and went out.

What am I not seeing in this verse?

Thanks all
Last Edit: 1 year, 3 months ago by webb.

Re: Revelation 20:10 & Mark 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4724

  • Singalphile
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 237
  • Karma: 12
... if the wicked are thrown into the same place as the devil, the beast and false prophet, and if the devil, beast and false prophet are tormented forever, isn't the logical conclusion here that the wicked will also be tormented forever?


To be frank, no. It is a reasonable conclusion, but it's not a logical conclusion. Logic doesn't in any way require that conclusion. The conclusion, based on assumption or inference, could be right or wrong.

As you noted, "the eternal fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels. When Revelation comes down to the final judgment of man, it is described as "the second death". For them, that death takes place in "the lake of fire". I suppose it will be a horrible death for many people, especially as they realize that they threw away, as it were, there opportunity for eternal life. It is very sobering.

Regarding Ezekiel 10:7, I don't see what the point is there either.
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.

Re: Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4731

  • webb
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 491
  • Karma: 17
Mark68 wrote:
There are two verses that make me anxious:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And:

Matthew 25: 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

What am I not seeing in this verse?
As fellow denizens of this forum will know, as a new creation premillennialist, I think the thing you are missing is that you have assumed the idea of Gehenna in Mt. 25:41, and I don't believe it belongs there.

According to my reading, the judgment that occurs when Jesus comes in glory (pictured in Mt. 25:31-46) is the great judgment of the living and the dead that is spoken of many times in the NT (Acts 10:42; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:1; 1 Pet. 4:5; Rev. 11:18). This judgment, according to Jesus, determines who is and who is not worthy of a part in the age to come, otherwise known as "that age" and "the renewal" (Mt. 19:28), i.e. the new creation. Those among the dead who are judged at this great trial will be evaluated as to whether they are "worthy of that age and the resurrection from among the dead" (Lk. 20:35). That is to say, if someone who has died is found worthy of that age, they will be resurrected; if they are not found worthy, they will remain in Hades for that age (cf. Rev. 1:18; 20:4-6). Those who are alive will either find themselves transformed to take part in the life of the age to come (1 Cor. 15:51-53), or they will be slain and added to the number of those imprisoned (again, Rev.1:18) in Hades for that age. Elsewhere, of course, Jesus characterizes the underworld of Hades as a fiery place (Lk. 16:23-26; see similarly Rev. 9:1-2). So mention of being tossed into a state of fiery punishment at the coming of the Lord Jesus does not yet connote resurrection, nor does it necessarily connote an everlasting fate.

I think Jesus, when he refers to "the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Mt. 25:41), refers to the prophecy of Isa. 24:21-23:
21 On that day the Lord will punish
the host of heaven in heaven,
and on earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together
like prisoners in a pit;
they will be shut up in a prison,
and after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be abashed,
and the sun ashamed;
for the Lord of hosts will reign
on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
and before his elders he will manifest his glory.
Note the connections. The LORD of Hosts means, essentially, the LORD (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), and all of his angels (cf. Mt. 16:27; 13:39-43; 20:30-31; 25:31; Mk 8:38; Lk. 9:26; 2 Thess. 1:7; Jude 1:14-15; Rev. 3:5). The rebellious angelic beings and the rebellious human beings, neither of which wanted the LORD of Hosts to come and reign, are herded together like prisoners of war and imprisoned in the underworld together (vv. 21-22 || Mt. 25:41; Rev. 19:17--20:6). Then the LORD will reign gloriously (with his Son, Rev. 11:15-18) on Mt Zion (v. 23; Rev. 14:1; 21:1-3), and will give a great banquet for the faithful of all time (Isa. 25:6-8; Mt. 8:11; Lk. 12:37; Rev. 19:6-9).

All of this is to say that, to me, an "eternal punishment" or "eternal fire" (Mt. 25:41, 46) is a punishment and a fire that the angels and the unrepentant experience in the prison of the "pit" (Isa. 24:21-22), which is like a penalty box for beings that have misbehaved in the creation. They are kept powerless to take part in the creation for the whole age to come. But "after many days" (Isa. 24:22) they all--unrepentant, rebellious humans and angels--will be seen to. God will release them and judge them one final time--this time on the basis of their behavior upon being released from the prison of the underworld. This final judgment, which occurs after the age that begins when Jesus comes in glory, is narrated in Isa. 26:10-11; 27:1-5; Rev. 20:7-10). It is this which is an irrevocable and permanent annihilation.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Mark68

Re: Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4732

  • Mark68
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Boarder
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: 0
Thank you very much Webb for the in depth reply, it's much appreciated!

I have to say though that your explanation is quite deep and I'm not sure I fully understand what it is you are saying. I think you are saying there will be two judgments for various beings, and that:

The first judgment is the one that involves beings being tormented day and night
The second (and final) judgment will see those who were tormented day and night, annihilated.

Is that it?

Re: Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4733

  • webb
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 491
  • Karma: 17
In asking about the unrepentant (both the devil and rebellious human and angelic followers) being tormented night and day, you're thinking of John's reference in Rev.14:10-11 and 19:3 and 20:10 to Isa. 34:9-10, which reads:

Isa. 34:9-10 Rev. 14:10-11 Rev. 18:8-9; 19:3 Rev. 20:10
9And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch. 10Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; no one shall pass through it forever and ever. 10 ...they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day and night 18:8...She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her. 9...the smoke of her burning...19:3The smoke goes up from her forever and ever. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I've put the terms that connect the Revelation passages to the Isaiah passages and to one another in special colors so you can see them.

The question I put to believers in everlasting torment is this: Do you believe that the literal land of Edom, and the
literal land of Babylon the Great, will literally be sending up toxic smoke into the atmosphere of the new creation for all eternity? If not, what does this language mean? There is nothing in the Isaiah 34 passage that has anything to do with torment. It's about the land of an enemy nation--a nation that had been a dangerous enemy of the Hebrews for as long as the Hebrews had been a nation when this prophecy was written. Egypt, Syria, Assyria, and Babylon were all threats--but Edom outlasted them all. If God judged Edom and burnt her cities to the ground, they would just go back and rebuild--as the people of every ancient city did when a fire destroyed them. (That, incidentally, is the reason why ancient cities are very often mounds that stick up above the terrain they are built on. They kept building on the rubble century after century.) Edom was a perennial enemy, a perennial threat. The imagery of Isa. 34:10-11 assured the faithful that when God comes in glory to judge the nations (see the rest of that chapter), Edom will be destroyed in a way that assures that it will never rise up again.

Similarly, John uses the language of Isaiah 34 in describing his visions, because he is being inspired to use the same literary technique as Isaiah: temporal hyperbole. He uses this in order to assure his readers that no, the devil and the unrepentant angels and humans will not periodically be brought back to threaten the faithful as they did in Rev. 20:7-10 after they were defeated in Rev. 19:17-20:3. No, this time, they will never come back.They will be destroyed forever. If, in other words, you cannot take Isa. 34:10-11 and Rev. 19:3 literally, then you mustn't take Rev. 14:10-11 and 20:10 literally. The Holy Spirit is consistent in how the truth is revealed, and we must be consistent in how we interpret it.
Last Edit: 1 year, 3 months ago by webb. Reason: supply missing words

Re: Revelation 20:10 & Matthew 25:41 1 year, 3 months ago #4734

  • webb
  • OFFLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 491
  • Karma: 17
As an addendum to my reply above, I should clarify that I see the imprisonment of the devil in the abyss for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3, 7-10) as closely paralleling the imprisonment in Hades for a thousand years of those slain at Christ's coming in glory and those refused resurrection--who also remain imprisoned in Hades for the thousand years (Rev. 19:21; 20:5). In other words, the devil and his angels and all the human unrepentant spend the whole first age of Christ's everlasting reign imprisoned together in the underworld--which parallels the picture in Isa. 24:21-23 and the picture in Mt. 25:31-46. The way I read it, an eternal punishment is a punishment that lasts a whole age--and one thousand years of imprisonment in the underworld lasts precisely one age. I am not, by the way, insistent that the thousand years be taken with strict literalness. The whole reason why this time period is said to last a thousand years may well be for the specific reason of identifying the period as an age, Greek aiōn. To an ancient Greek speaker, to talk about an "eternal punishment" (κόλασις αἰώνιος) or about "the eternal fire" (τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον) is, unless otherwise explained, a punishment and a fire that lasts for a whole age--not a fire that lasts forever and ever, i.e., in Greek, εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, to the age(s) of the ages.
Time to create page: 1.28 seconds
Featured audio: Dr. Al Mohler & Chris Date debate
"Should Christians rethink Hell?" on Unbelievable?