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My simple belief in Conditionalism
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TOPIC: My simple belief in Conditionalism

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 2 weeks ago #5138

  • John Haak
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I think you have the clearest literal passage in Luke 23 when Jesus tells the dying thief that they would see each other that day in paradise. The idea that Jesus could not be touched is based on a mistranslation and the tense of the verb actually is "stop holding on to me." Therefore it is not a solid enough passage to stake any claim on as StealthV proposed.

As you know we have plenty more passages with no such problems.

Singal, good to see you holding down the Forum Fort here so well.
Last Edit: 2 months, 2 weeks ago by John Haak. Reason: typo

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 2 weeks ago #5139

  • John Haak
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Simple is good and thanks for sharing here.

But your second point of not being touchable has too many problems. See Matthew 28:9 where they are touching him in the parallel scene. Also the passage you are thinking of, John 20:17, is translated "stop clinging to me" so it reflects the Greek present tense imperative. If he wanted to say, "Don't touch me!" John would have used a different tense.

Overall seek to be careful that your Scriptures of support are more free of holes like this. But glad to have you around and keep posting as we learn together.

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 2 weeks ago #5141

The "not touch" part of the verse is irrelevant to the point I was making. The stated fact that Jesus hadn't returned to heaven after being in the tomb for over 24 hours means, to me, that Jesus was asleep after his death on the cross, he arose, met with some of his followers and THEN went to the side of the Heavenly Father. To me, this is a type of the human experience, as well. Meaning that, after our earthy death, we sleep until resurrected.

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 2 weeks ago #5153

  • chloebess
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Just saw this........wanted to give my opinion on the Genesis reference to "you will die if you eat of this tree," etc.

Seems your point is that the death referred to there is physical. And that is what it says, but consider:

Spiritual death and physical death linked. If we deny God and go our way, as Eve and Adam did, they suffered immediate spiritual death..........that means when they died, assuming they didn't change their ways, their penalty would be physical death (second death) since all of us, Godly or not, will experience physical death here.

Either way eternal life is conditional........proves we are not immortal. Even the tree of life was removed to prevent them from having eternal life while in the state they were in.

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 1 week ago #5160

  • John Haak
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I suspect there is material at this site that discusses what the Genesis phrase means and is well done.

Be careful with the term "spiritual death" as it is one way ECT changes the clear meaning of "death" into an ongoing state of torment instead of destruction. Romans is the closest we come to this phrasing but the term is actually not in Scripture.

Re: My simple belief in Conditionalism 2 months, 1 week ago #5162

  • chloebess
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Agree.

But I don't think there is any getting away from the issue that Eve and Adam did lose their spiritual life when then sinned. And, that there mortal lives continued on a normal course - or at least that is where I would take this since they were never immortal in the first place.

And, beyond that, this is the sequence.....First we lose our spiritual lives when we sin, and if not remedied, it leads to our death at Judgment.

Whatever the ECT folks make of that is their business.

Carl
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