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The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians)
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TOPIC: The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians)

Re: The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians) 8 months ago #5083

  • Piqsid
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kgddds wrote:

2 Peter 2:4,9 could be interpreted to say that the fallen angels and the unrighteous are being passively held (not tormented) in a state that is unknown. It could be a state of consciousness or in a state with no awareness. More recently, I have been considering the possibility of this state being a state where they are essentially suspended in a timeless state—where a state of consciousness/unconsciousness is not relevant. The bottom line, though, is that God knows how to “hold” those pending judgement whatever their state of being may be.

Jude 6 says:
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day--

"Kept in chains" doesn't really say "conscious" or "unconscious." Gloomy Darkness could imply unconsciousness, or you could reason that in order to experience the fact that it is gloomy darkness, you would have to be conscious. And, why would you have to chain them, if they were unconscious. Either way, the fate of these fallen angels doesn't necessary lead to the fate of the wicked.

It is also interesting to note that the angels are kept in "Eternal" chains, yet it is clear that the chains do not last forever. They last only up until the day of judgement.
Last Edit: 8 months ago by Piqsid.

Re: The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians) 8 months ago #5084

  • kgddds
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Piqsid wrote:
And, why would you have to chain them, if they were unconscious...

It is also interesting to note that the angels are kept in "Eternal" chains, ...

Perhaps “eternal chains” might be better interpreted as “age-long chains” there, but, along the lines of what I’m thinking, perhaps that could describe being bound in the chains of time. Perhaps “gloomy darkness” doesn’t describe a location, but rather a plight that is doomed without hope.

Of course, physical chains and dark dungeons are what initially and naturally come to mind, but that probably is not the case. I’m thinking that Jude 6 might describe angels that are hopelessly bound in time awaiting final judgement.

We do serve a God who is not bound by time, so this time capsule-like thought is not so far out there, yet it is a difficult one to entertain because we can’t really wrap our brains around it very readily.

Regarding time, we should be careful when thinking of it—God and man experience it differently. God exists outside of time and space. God is timeless; man is time-bound. Mankind needs words like "history" and "future"; God does not, He is omnipresent. Time is a dimension with effects only on man. Man remembers the past, experiences the present, and anticipates the future; God has no separation of the past, present, and future—they occur simultaneously to Him. Whoa and Wow! God sees through time. God transcends time! God knows "the end from the beginning." And God's knowledge is exhaustive, including even those things yet future.


Isaiah 46:10 NLT
[10] Only I can tell you the future before it even happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.

Jude 1:25 NLT
[25] All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.
The beauty of grace is seen in the glory it reveals.
Grace is glory's seed; Glory is grace's bloom.

Re: The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians) 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5092

  • jeremiah
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To your your original question about the use of "dead in sins" proving the traditionalist’s idea of unpleasant existence. I wouldn’t say it proves it, but to my mind it certainly to some degree legitimizes their rejection of the conditionalist favored understanding of death in the new testament. Among many things which could be said, it at least demonstrates the flexible usage of death and life in even something so foundational as the gospel itself.
I think the expression of such concepts with such words should at least give the conditionalist pause when tempted to dismiss traditionalists as maybe " just ignoring the obvious." I know you're not saying this, many have, that's alll I mean.

Grace and peace to you brother.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Last Edit: 7 months, 3 weeks ago by jeremiah.

Re: The Definition of Death (Ephesians, Colossians) 7 months, 2 weeks ago #5094

  • webb
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Welcome, Kyle!

I'll just add my two cents here. Just as living our new life in Christ can be metaphorically referred to as living as resurrected people, so our old life in the flesh living in sin and alienation from God can be metaphorically referred to as being dead. It's not really any more complicated than that.(Rom. 6:4-5, 9-11; Gal. 2:19-20; Eph. 2:5-6; 5:14; Col. 2:12-13; 3:1). It is a bad habit to literalize everything and insist on taking every statement as straight ontological information. It gets people in all kinds of messes.
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