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Heb 9:27 and the second death
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TOPIC: Heb 9:27 and the second death

Heb 9:27 and the second death 4 months ago #5249

  • timsimmk
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Hebrews 9:27 states that man only dies once, but the Bible speaks of a "second death". Traditionalists claim that Heb 9:27 is referring to physical death and the "second death" is a spiritual death experienced when one is physically alive after resurrection. They thus argue that a person only ever physically dies once and so Heb 9:27 holds true.

How do conditionalists respond to this? If the "second death" is a final state of complete physical death after resurrection and judgment, how can it be said that man is appointed to die only once?

Re: Heb 9:27 and the second death 4 months ago #5253

timsimmk wrote:
Hebrews 9:27 states that man only dies once, but the Bible speaks of a "second death". Traditionalists claim that Heb 9:27 is referring to physical death and the "second death" is a spiritual death experienced when one is physically alive after resurrection. They thus argue that a person only ever physically dies once and so Heb 9:27 holds true.

How do conditionalists respond to this? If the "second death" is a final state of complete physical death after resurrection and judgment, how can it be said that man is appointed to die only once?


Mankind has not experienced the same transition that Jesus experienced on the day He was resurrected from the grave. Immortal and if it was any other man a sinless heart would have been included. God set 120 years as being how long a man lives before he enters the grave in a sleeping state. Going to the grave wipes away all your sins so anybody going there is sinless when the are resurrected back from, be that at the start of the 1,000 years or just before it ends at an event called Judgment Day.

Jesus and the OT Saints that were resurrected have all been glorified and that is the term used. The next to go through that same provess is on the day the two witnesses are resurrected. They are the first and by the end of that same the whole House of Israel is resurrected as well as the whole church. Both groups have some members that end that day without having to go to the grave. The whole population is a glorified group and they are static in number as they are not given in marriage,just like angels before they enter their new heaven. They have experienced the 2nd birth and they come under the Re:21 law instead of the 10 Commandments because the 10 Commandments are for sinners in a sinful world. The 1,000 reign is under a law suitable for immortal and sinless people in an era that last for eternity.

The ones resurrected at Judgment Day are given a drink of living water as soon as the book of life is closed and that is what the glorification process includes first and for most. eating from the tree of life gives them a perfected body to go along with immortality and a new heart. Should anybody sin the the new earth they would be sent to the fiery lake alive just like all fallen angels do.

God stops that before it starts.

Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

Re: Heb 9:27 and the second death 3 months, 4 weeks ago #5265

  • timsimmk
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Sorry I'm not sure I understand that post.

Re: Heb 9:27 and the second death 3 months, 4 weeks ago #5266

The people appointed to die are all in the grave by the time the resurrection of Re:20:4 begins. Some are resurrected to life at the end of the same day of the return and anybody not alive then is resurrected at the GWT event that takes place at the end of that reign.
Hope that helps.

Re: Heb 9:27 and the second death 3 months, 4 weeks ago #5267

  • Singalphile
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That's interesting, timsimmk (in the original post). I would say the following:

1. It's a generalization.
Not everyone has died once (Enoch, Elijah, it seems), a few died more than once (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, presumably, at least), many people will not die (believers alive at Christ's coming), and many people will die twice (the second death). But, in general, it is "laid up" for every human to die once. It is not laid up for every human to die twice. The second death is highly conditional (if name not written in book of life).

2. Everyone acknowledges two distinct, different deaths.
The death in Hebrews 9:27 is certainly different than the second death of Rev. One might say that the spirit/soul is not destroyed until the second death, or one might point out that only the second death is eternal (and conditional). The interpretation that one is "physical death" and one is "spiritual death" doesn't resolve the alleged objection or contraction more than any other interpretation.

3. The passage isn't about "hell".
The appointed death that the author of Hebrews has in mind is the death with which everyone is familiar. There's no clear application to anything beyond that. The conditional second death, after the judgment, was not necessarily in the author's mind at all. Taking that sentence fragment out of context like that is, I think, a good example of proof-texting.

4. Hebrews describes the judgment in terms more agreeable with CI/annih.
When the author of Hebrews does get around to discussing judgment (ch. 10), he speaks of "a fire that will consume the adversaries", and a "severer punishment [than the one] who dies without mercy", and of those "who shrink back to destruction [rather than] the preserving of the soul." (Heb 10:26-39)
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.
Last Edit: 3 months, 3 weeks ago by Singalphile.

Re: Heb 9:27 and the second death 3 months, 3 weeks ago #5272

Singalphile wrote:
That's interesting. I would say the following:

1. It's a generalization.
Not everyone has died once (Enoch, Elijah, it seems), a few died more than once (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, presumably, at least), many people will not die (believers alive at Christ's coming), and many people will die twice (the second death). But, in general, it is "laid up" for every human to die once. It is not laid up for every human to die twice. The second death is highly conditional (if name not written in book of life).

I go by the 120 years from the verse below and Moses and everybody past that has been subject to the determination.

Ge:6:3:
And the LORD said,
My spirit shall not always strive with man,
for that he also is flesh:
yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The ones that were resurrected (1 in the OT and Lazarus and the sleeping girl) would have been in the same condition as Jesus on the morning of His resurrection but He ascended to God that same day and was glorified and returned to earth the same day as He was giving a few followers the same baptism He got from above after John Baptized Him in the River Jordan. Without that glorification would He have entered the grave again just before the age of 120 years. The Saints that were resurrected with Jesus that morning also ascended to God that day but they never came back down but became the 24 Elders in Re:4.
I tend to take the words 'took him' to mean God took Enoch's breath of life to heaven and that applies to Ezekiel as well. That does not eliminate the possibility that they were taken alive and are the first members of the 24 Elders as people were long lived before the flood.
One thing is certain, Eligah's son was given his powers and he believed he dies as he was in grief so much that when mocked by 40 children to told him to fly away like his father did he cursed them so hard a bear killed them all.
Neither of them came back but going up means the return is slated for the day the witnesses are resurrected and no other resurrection takes place until the 7 vials kill all the sinners. The Beast that killed the two witnesses is sent to the fiery lake and they get to witness that. That also eliminates them as being the two witnesses but they do have thrones so they are part of the Shepherds and the whole of the people that are alive at the start are their flock.

Re:5:8:-10
And when he had taken the book,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
having every one of them harps,
and golden vials full of odours,
which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song,
saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book,
and to open the seals thereof:
for thou wast slain,
and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred,
and tongue,
and people,
and nation;

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The 'day of the Lord' uses the 1000 years is equal to 1 day when you are with God means the whole 1,000 year reign is covered. The sequence on the 1st day of that era goes like this, the resurrection of the two witnesses and then the 7 vials are poured out on satan's kingdom and everybody is dead in a few hours. After that is the resurrection of the whole House of Israel and the church so that would include Elijah as well as Moses and Elias from the vision on the mountain. The only wrath that comes after that is when all fallen angels are snt to the fiery lake. As far as Job knew that is when he was due for his resurrection.

Job:14:12-15:
So man lieth down,
and riseth not:
till the heavens be no more,
they shall not awake,
nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
that thou wouldest keep me secret,
until thy wrath be past,

that thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
and remember me!
If a man die,
shall he live again?
all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee:
thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Singalphile wrote:

2. Everyone acknowledges two distinct, different deaths.
The death in Hebrews 9:27 is certainly different than the second death of Rev. One might say that the spirit/soul is not destroyed until the second death, or one might point out that only the second death is eternal (and conditional). The traditionalist interpretation - one is "physical death" and one is "spiritual death" - doesn't resolve the alleged objection or contraction more than any other interpretation.

It doesn't work like that. If you cannot understand the Bible it is said you have scales on your eyes and you are deaf. Spiritual issues can get mixed up if you apply what is said in a vision. Re:17 and Da:7 both have visions about the 10 men that are the 10 toes of the iron/clay kingdom. After reading the explanations that come right after do you think it promotes something literal of something that is just spiritual. Spiritual and being raised from the dead is a spiritual awakening. Being raised from the dead literally if a core belief of the writers of the NT books.

1Co:15:19:
If in this life only we have hope in Christ,
we are of all men most miserable.

1Co:15:32:
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus,
what advantageth it me,
if the dead rise not?
let us eat and drink;
for to morrow we die.

Singalphile wrote:

3. The passage isn't about "hell".
The appointed death that the author of Hebrews has in mind is the death with which everyone is familiar. There's no clear application to anything beyond that. The conditional second death, after the judgment, was not necessarily in the author's mind at all. Taking that sentence fragment out of context like that is, I think, a good example of proof-texting.

If He was referencing the 2nd death then it has to come after the 2nd birth. The ones resurrected at judgment Day are in the same condition Jesus was on the morning of His resurrection. The ones alive on earth are glorified on earth as the river in Eze:47 is there for that whole era. The drink of water being offered in re:21 is for the ones resurrected at the end of Re:20. There are no other groups of people. After that drink of water they are the ones building houses outside of 'New"Jerusalem in this chapter.
Once saved, always saved applies to any person who has the 2nd birth.

Isa:65:24:
And it shall come to pass,
that before they call,
I will answer;
and while they are yet speaking,
I will hear.

Joh:3:3:
Jesus answered and said unto him,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto thee,
Except a man be born again,
he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Re:11:14-19:
The second woe is past;
and,
behold,
the third woe cometh quickly.
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ;
and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And the four and twenty elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name,
small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

All important subjects are not mentioned in only one place. This is about the 2nd birth and it is meant to be taken literally.

1Th:4:13-18:
But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren,
concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not,
even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Co:15:50-56:
Now this I say,
brethren,
that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold,
I shew you a mystery;
We shall not all sleep,
but we shall all be changed,
In a moment,
in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death,
where is thy sting?
O grave,
where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin;
and the strength of sin is the law.

The 144,000 are sealed from the danger that comes from the trumps. After the vials are finished this is what the whole House of Israel will be after the resurrection of them is complete.

Eze:37:11-17:
Then he said unto me,
Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel:
behold,
they say,
Our bones are dried,
and our hope is lost:
we are cut off for our parts.
Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
Behold,
O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves,
O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you,
and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it,
saith the LORD.
The word of the LORD came again unto me,
saying,
Moreover,
thou son of man,
take thee one stick,
and write upon it,
For Judah,
and for the children of Israel his companions:
then take another stick,
and write upon it,
For Joseph,
the stick of Ephraim,
and for all the house of Israel his companions:
And join them one to another into one stick;
and they shall become one in thine hand.

Singalphile wrote:

4. Hebrews describes the judgment in terms more agreeable with CI/annih.
When the author of Hebrews does get around to discussing judgment (ch. 10), he speaks of "a fire that will consume the adversaries", and a "severer punishment [than the one] who dies without mercy", and of those "who shrink back to destruction [rather than] the preserving of the soul." (Heb 10:26-39)


How does this fit in. The day of the cross was the completion of the 'bruise to the heel from Ge:3 15 and it was 3 1/2 years from when John was called to start preaching. Jesus was on the cross by 12PM and dead by 3PM and in the tomb by 6PM.
Satan is given 42 months because the Beast from the Pit begins uit's 42 months the day the 5th trump sounds, 3 1/2 years later the 7th trump sounds and that is the day Satan is chained up and thrown into the Pit that the Beast was released from. The day the two witnesses are resurrected is at the 1/2 day mark and the 7 vials are poured out in a few hours so they are done by 3pm and then the resurrections start and by 6pm the 12 Tribes are whole and the Gentile Church is whole and those two groups remain at that number of people for the whole period.

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Zec:14:7:
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD,
not day,
nor night:
but it shall come to pass, t
hat at evening time it shall be light.
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