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The Expanding Revelations from NDEs
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TOPIC: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs

The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #631

  • Gelert
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Near Death Experiences (NDEs) have been around since at least Plato's time (google his account of the soldier Er - e.g. www.philipcoppens.com/er.html ).

However with modern medicine the number of people/souls having experience of the afterlife and returning to talk about it is in the 100,000s if not millions. I personally had a brief NDE myself but made my decision to return whilst in the "tunnel", so no great new revelations to bring back. However some have had prolonged/deep NDEs and been documented as clinically dead for many minutes or even hours. It seems that returning from such prolonged NDEs is more associated with degrees of miraculous healing and recovery, so those who tell their tales are not brain-damaged etc and often eventually healthier than ever...

The reason for posting here - these deep NDE accounts are very relevant for bringing back "eye-witness" accounts of hellish and heavenly realms and it seems all kinds of levels in between. There is much of relevance to the nature of God, the Devil, Atonement/Salvation and the future meaning/goals of existence.

I advise everyone to take the time to read through, listen and watch the numerous "EXCEPTIONAL NDE" accounts (as the deep/prolonged accounts seem to be labelled) that are being made available on line.

www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/Exceptional%20Accounts.htm (if you read through all of these raw personal testimonies a remarkably coherent picture emerges)

nhne-pulse.org/resource_pages/near-death-experiences/ (this website has more commentary and analysis and thus different viewpoints, but within it are the raw personal testimonies)

www.lifebeyonddeath.net/ (this neurosurgeon's testimony is quite likely to make a splash beyond theologically minded and out into the secular and scientific world)

There is much more too.
But my reading suggests the evidence points towards:

  1. God is unconditionally loving and does not condemn. Many NDEers are brought to tears talking about the amazing love of God/Jesus/Being of Light.
  2. Judgement is the sense of shame and remorse that people have in life reviews that come with 100% empathic awareness of the effects of all our actions on all others. Imagine Hitler having such a life review.
  3. There is a spark of the Divine in all souls - full separation from God is just not possible.
  4. Pain and suffering in this life and the next has an aspect of learning to it.
  5. Hellish realms exist but souls there are ministered to by angels/higher souls/Christ Himself and at any moment they "look up" out of their egocentric miseries they seem to be whisked away to more heavenly realms.
  6. We have free will, but God/Jesus/angels/advanced souls constantly respond to prayer and try and influence this earthly realm to direct us according to God's higher plan. This still occurs for beings in lower afterlife realms. Many NDEers say that Jesus/Being of Light/Higher Souls/God conveys to them that in the fullness of time all shall be well and ultimately strongly suggesting universal salvation.
  7. Demons or at least aggressive lost souls appear but many report no sightings or word of a powerful Devil/Satan - and some specifically say they have knowledge that there is no such demi-god like evil being. This interestingly is a mainstream view within Judaism who have quite a different take on the Hebrew word translated as "Satan" in English bibles.
  8. Time as we experience here as lineal has little meaning in the afterlife where all NDEers say it is some kind of eternal now and "time" is created by direction of conscious attention. They say it is impossible to fully comprehend or explain it once back "here and now".
  9. We have pre-existence before this life and our life here is like a tiny moment in the greater scheme of our existence, but important nonetheless.


My reading of 1,000s of NDEs since the late 1970s has led to shifts in my Christian theological beliefs. If nothing else these "travellers tales" offer much food for thought - and should not be excluded from theological debates any longer, even if they're not "biblical". Why does revelation have to stop with St John? The overwhelming number and consistency in the accounts, sometimes verified by amazing knowledge gleaned whilst "dead" and confirmed after being revived despite no materialistic way of aquiring such knowledge (e.g. of recent death of a grandparents whose soul they met and information communicated etc) points to strong face validity of these testimonies.
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Gelert.

Re: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #632

  • Givemhell
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Gelert wrote:
If nothing else these "travellers tales" offer much food for thought - and should not be excluded from theological debates any longer, even if they're not "biblical".


Everything needs to be held up to scripture and if it doesn't match with scripture we can be confident that the problem is not with scripture. I don't think that anyone's imagination trumps biblical Truth as it is revealed in God's inspired word.

Besides, we all know that near death experiences vary depending on the culture and that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and we are not to trust these kinds of "visions" but instead, we are to go to the scriptures and test all the things.

"Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21
"And no wonder, Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light". 2 Cor 11:14

Listen... All men are criminals in front of a God of Justice who is going to judge all of us. We are all guilty and we deserve to be punished for our sins. God tells us that His standard is perfection and that the punishment for sin is death.

If you honestly look back on your life you will see that you have done many things that were very evil. You have probably mistreated people at times, you have probably lied and committed adultery in your heart. You have probably committed murder in your heart. You might have taken things that weren't yours and have probably committed many different kinds of sins. You probably can't even remember all of them.

Now, if you understood what I have been saying to you, the natural reaction is fear and a feeling of guilt. This is how you should feel but I want you to know that there is good news.

God took on human flesh and lived a sinless life and suffered and was crucified as a sacrifice for sins. He died on that cross but God raised Jesus from the grave three days later. Christ is our Lord and our God and He commands us to repent of our sins and to believe in Him for the forgiveness of our sins.

So, if you put your faith on the Lord and believe, then your sin debt was paid for and you don't have to be afraid of God's wrath towards the wicked. Also, Christ's righteousness is given to you so that you will be born again, you have will have eternal life and you will be adopted into the family of God.

Now, if you reject this message, that Christ is God and that He died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins etc., then your sins remain on you and you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven but can only look forward to the terrifying punishment of the righteous wrath of our Just and Holy God who will give you exactly what you deserve for your sins and there will be no hope left for you.

Also, you should know that salvation is a gift. We can't earn it by by being good because God did everything for us. Christ died to save us. We don't save ourselves. We should be grateful and trust in Him and He will sanctify us.



For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:8
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures." 1 Corinthians 15:3


Let me know if you have any questions about what I told you and I will try to help you if I can.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Givemhell.
The following user(s) said Thank You: John Haak

Re: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #633

  • Gelert
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Thankyou for your concern Givemhell.

But I do know the biblical and theological interpretation/perspective you quite clearly and succinctly spell out. I know it very well. You describe it well actually. It is however only one of several doctrines of the atonement within Christianity.

I have been a Christian all my life though my views have shifted. My background is mainly Catholic but with plenty of time and exposure to Evangelicalism and Pentecostalism and even Eastern Orthodoxy.

I don't accept the 4 spiritual laws version of the atonement, it (or rather the similar Augustinian pre-Vatican II version in Catholicism) never gelled with me as from early childhood I felt God is a loving parent who loves us all with perfect unconditional love. That was and still is my elderly mother's faith. Having raised 4 children I know that even my very imperfect love would never ever want them punished in any but a temporary corrective way as "natural consequences". This fits more with some Christian Universalist perspectives and a reading of scripture based on the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek - that finds nowhere - yes nowhere - in scripture is there a reference to "eternal punishment". There is plenty of (spelling from memory) "ainion kollasis" - Greek for an indefinite but not eternal time of "pruning" i.e. corrective experience - similar I suppose to the modern enlightened view of jail as "correctional services".

{By the way the only group of Jews in Jesus time who seemed to talk about "eternal punishment" ("aidios timora" in NT Greek) were the Pharisees}.

As another aside on the atonement - these two videos quite cleverly using simple chairs illustrate that your doctrinal position is not the only mainstream position:





This - hell as a place of natural consequences that one can leave at any time one "looks up" and sees or calls upon the unconditional loving grace of God - perspective is highly supported in the deep/prolonged NDE accounts.

Now - if you want to dispute all these and say they are the work of The Devil - then I think - after reading thousands of NDE accounts as I have over the last 35 years - you'd have to presume that Satan is incredibly powerful, moreso than God, and God is quite absent in the afterlife - and the Being of Light which emanates immense incredible unconditional Love that all NDEers who get that far attest is just miles greater than the love we generally find here on Earth - is Satan doing a remarkably good impersonation of God, Jesus and the angels.

Sure there is cultural differences in NDEs - some deep NDE accounts tell of why this is so - God meets souls where they're at and (a bit like Paul Young's book The Shack - God will appear in a form that best meets the soul's journey and level of spiritual growth).

Finally on scripture - clearly you are a "biblical literalist". But that is a hard position to hold when one puts aside the filters of historical doctrines and reads the scriptures - especially more literal translations - in as open and non-doctrinal a way as possible. It is a fact (see the numerous websites on this) that verses will contradict - there are verses supporting eternal conscious torment, supporting annihilation and supporting universalism - and the latter seems to have the most.

Actually for a biblical literalist interpretation of scripture that comes to a strong universalist conclusion - and is very well argued - have you read "Raising Hell" by Julie Ferweda?

A link discussing NDE's expressing some of your concerns from a Catholic perspective - www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1968695/posts

And one of the best deep/prolonged/exceptional NDE accounts that involves much time with Jesus - www.amazon.com/Return-from-Tomorrow-ebook/dp/B001GIPRYO

I still advise to read the exceptional accounts in the links in my first post - unless you somehow think there it is sinning to read outside one's doctrinal position? But then what punitive view of God does that imply? And I have to also ask - what is the underlying meaning of your username?

God bless.
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Gelert.

Re: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #634

  • Givemhell
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It is clear to me that you have been sold a lie. You have forsaken the gospel of Christ for lying dreams and visions and I am warning you that you must repent and turn towards God for forgiveness.

If you do not believe then you will face the wrath of God as He has said in His Word.





You don't have the right to make up your own God. There is only one God and it is not the God of your imagination, it is the God that is revealed in the scriptures.

It is sad that you would identify yourself as a Christians only to say that you believe that the bible contradicts itself and then to dismiss the gospel of Christ in the way that you did. This lends further credibility to the subject that we were discussing earlier, that Satan masquerades as an angel of light.




If you would like to discuss one thing at a time that is fine but I don't have time to cover a million topics at once and I don't have time to address outside resources.

Pick something. If you think that the bible is a book of lies because you see that it is full of contradictions, then post an apparent contradiction and we can talk about it.

If you think that the verses that I posted do not prove the gospel of Christ then post verses that prove that they do not.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Givemhell.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Susan

Re: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #635

  • Givemhell
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One more thing. I would venture a guess that you have not read any of the articles on this site or have listened to any of the podcasts as your comments indicate a lack of familiarity with what the bible teaches concerning the fate of the wicked.

I recommend that you take some time to familiarize yourself with the content and purpose of this website before you post more of your Satanic propaganda.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Givemhell.

Re: The Expanding Revelations from NDEs 5 years, 6 months ago #636

Gelert,

Thank you very much for your contribution, I think it does add something to what we are getting at here, which is what is the nature of the life to come, and of hell? However, you seem to put almost more weight on these experiences than the scripture - though perhaps, like us, you are merely challenging our current understanding of scripture.

I think most of the 9 points you mention are congruous with the orthodox Christian views of God, but let me comment on each from a Conditionalist point of view (well, really, my point of view :

1. God is loving and does not condemn - I think it is entirely possible that this experience of God is how we can know and experience God now, and in such a presence, our own sins and lusts will seem quite ugly to us, and we would want to forsake them (though we may not have the ability without God's help). However, this of course, does not discount that there may be a day of wrath for those who have rejected Him, as well as a day of judgment for all of us when our works are tested.

2. Judgment as remorse - I fully expect that this experience will be part of facing God and doing a life review, if that's part of how God does it. And we may have a clarity that our aging, forgetful brains here don't have - it could be horrible to relive our hideous actions and thoughts - perhaps even experiencing some of what others felt due to our actions. Again, though, I don't know if this will be all of it, or if God will mete out some other punishment as well. We can know that it will be fair and just. *Shudder* - me, i'm looking for mercy.

3. Spark of the Divine - while I agree that we are 'all made in God's image,' your statement sounds a little bit like panentheism - that if God destroyed one of us, he would be destroying part of himself. I'm not sure that's Biblical, or even true - I mean, that's a decent opinion, but it could be that we are separate individuals CONNECTED to God. And of course, once we are born again, His spirit comes to live IN us - but not BEFORE that point.

4. Learning from Pain and Suffering - so you think that there is pain in the NEXT life that we are to learn from? So in NDE's, there is still pain in that realm, or the life to come? As you know, the Bible speaks of a time when there is NO more suffering or pain. Perhaps there is pain in the afterlife during this intermediate, pre-parousia period, and we haven't gotten to the point in time where sin and suffering are no more in the cosmos.

5. Ministering angels whisking people from hellish realms - That's an interesting picture. Of course, even in Christendom, the intermediate state is hotly debated, and not clearly discussed in scripture. It's possible that such things occur, but we sure don't have any direct biblical indications. I mean, it does say that it is appointed once for a man to die, and then (right after?), the judgment, which seems to indicate that we experience an immediate judgment after death, and people have talked about soul sleep, etc. Perhaps people are not asleep, but suffer in torment and can somehow look up and be saved after death and before the day of judgment. That's not directly unbiblical, but it has anti-biblical implications. I think we can agree to disagree on that, because who knows?

6. Free will and angelic influence - perhaps angels influence us here, who knows. I know God does. Again, as to souls in the afternlife, you're on your own there - possible, unknown. However, even if that was true, that would not necessarily lead to Universal Salvation - it remains that some could/would reject the light.

7. Demons yes, Satan no? - well, perhaps Satan was too busy to work on individual souls when he has a business to run . It is interesting that none of these folks experienced a supreme evil dude. There are at least 4 possibilities here:
a. They just didn't stay long enough to gather data - maybe we need more data
b. Perhaps he is, as scripture suggests, restrained somehow. Perhaps he's there, but not directly accessible
c. Perhaps he does not exist, but is merely a personification of evil. I don't think this is the right interpretation of scripture, but it could be.
d. He likes decieving people, and since he can disguise himself as an angel of light, they missed him. Perhaps he likes the idea of people thinking he does not exist so that he can go about his business without detection.

8. Time and the eternal now - I know that I call prayer 'the timeless place' because we step out of the 'stream of time,' or the stream of our busy lives, at least, and experience God. This part is entirely congruent with scripture, no problems there, and I expect that it is true.

9. Pre-existence - well, no one knows this for sure, but of course, orthodoxy teaches that we begin to exist in the womb, and perhaps that we are actually 'created' in the womb - not just built, but come into being. The bible says nothing about such pre-existence, but I suppose it might be true. I'm not sure what soteriological or other theological implications this has - perhaps this is a 'dangerous doctrine,' and perhaps it doesn't matter.

10. Ongoing revelation - that's a good question, even a natural one. Again, orthodoxy denies such a premise, but in theory, I have no objection to it, you just have to be careful. What if a new 'revelation,' like Islam, Mormonism, or ACIM disagrees with scripture? Then you have some decisions to make.

In summation, as with all spiritual experience, NDE's certainly are REAL experiences. The challenge, though, is to rightly INTERPRET what we have experienced - for example, was that glowing angel that I met from God, or Satan clothed as an angel of light telling me that God didn't really send Jesus to save me? That's where we need to be careful.
Last Edit: 5 years, 6 months ago by Daniel Sinclair.
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