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Every knee shall bow
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TOPIC: Every knee shall bow

Every knee shall bow 12 months ago #4952

  • Bronson
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I am trying to understand the Universalist's position, as i dont want to misrepresent and i am also still very open to the possibility that God saves all. Im trying to read, watch and think through a universalissts position

I was recently thinking about Phillipians 2:10 that every knee in heaven and on earth would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I can only think of 2 interpretations of this and the only one that seems to stand, and for the God who is being bowed to to keep His perfect and benevolent Character is a universalists interpretation, which is easy to accept on Its presupposition, all at that time will have new hearts willingly and freely choose to bow in humble submission to the Lord. Thats one interpretation.

The only other interpretation i can think of is held by both Annihilation(my position) and ECT, that all, even the still rebellious and unregenerate will bow, but not because their will is inclined to but by the sheer authoritative power of Christ. Now this is very easy to accept if one doesnt think about it(read: most Christians), "yes, they are still rebels, but they will by the sheer gravity of the authority of Christ 'be forced' to bow and confess." but its this last part of force that seems to throw a proverbial wrench in the teleology and foreknowledge of God.
This "Bowing and confessing would be by sheer force, for the persons will would be dead set against God, Gnashing their teeth. If they kneeled it would not be voluntary therefore ingenuine and a complete facade. And the God of scripture would ordain this ultimate climax of fakery and force? It just doesnt make sense to me the more i think about what it would actually be like at the moment of kneeling and confessing, pushing the person down and coercing a false confession, this does not seem like something God would want.

Post-mortem i assume that most people think like i do and Gods grace will be removed leaving the unbeliever full of rage, their heart vomiting forth its rebellion in the face of the Creator they hate. at this point God pushes him to a knee and evokes a fallacious confession to His Lordship, albeit at this point they would know He is Lord, but if in their hate-restrained state here on this side of eternity they wont confess, now with much of the goodness of Gods grace on them being removed they will?

Re: Every knee shall bow 12 months ago #4955

  • kgddds
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Bronson wrote:
I can only think of 2 interpretations of this and the only one that seems to stand, ...

I think Philippians 2:10-11 can be interpreted to mean that everyone will come to a complete and absolute truthful awareness (admit as truth—confess) and be under the absolute and irresistible authority (submit to the truth—bow) that Jesus is in fact the highest authority and Lord and Judge at the great Judgement.

Even demons and Satan admit and submit in this respect (in one sense confess and bow), but of course, do not embrace and receive him as Lord and they remain rebellious. "Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror." (Jas 2:19 NLT) Demons who request to be cast into pigs are in one sense confessing and bowing to the highest authority and power of Jesus.

Bow means to bend the knee or body or incline the head, as in reverence, submission, salutation, recognition, or acknowledgment. So this does not necessarily mean that the rebellious will be forced to bow in false reverence or forced to falsely claim allegiance, but rather irresistibly bow in true submission (or true recognition, or true acknowledgement) of the reality that Jesus is King.

Maybe a similarity can be illustrated by the anti-Trumpers:
Is Donald Trump president? Yes (tongue confesses)
Are you subject to his authority? Yes (knee bows)
What does your sign say? "Not MY president!" (rebellious to leadership)

Just my thoughts...and my second thoughts would be that it's probably is a bad idea to illustrate religion through politics!

Ken
The beauty of grace is seen in the glory it reveals.
Grace is glory's seed; Glory is grace's bloom.
Last Edit: 11 months, 3 weeks ago by kgddds. Reason: Corrected Scripture reference

Re: Every knee shall bow 11 months, 4 weeks ago #4958

  • Singalphile
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Hi, Bronson (and all).

I know of 4 interpretations of Phil 2:10-11:

1. Every human who has ever lived will eventually or at some point bow and confess. They will do so genuinely and willingly and all will therefore be saved. This only works with the universal reconciliation (UR) view.

2. Every human who has ever lived will eventually or at some point bow and confess. Some will do so genuinely and willingly, while others will do so grudgingly and still in rebellion. The former group will be saved, while the latter will perish. This could only work within the CI or ECT views.

3. At some point in time, every human who remains alive will bow and confess. All intransigent, sinful rebels will have been destroyed before that point, and all who remain will be saved and at that time everyone who lives will bow and confess. This only works with CI.

4. Everyone should (or may or might) bow and confess, but not everyone actually will. The Greek verb tenses in Phil 2:10-11 of bow and confess are both in the subjunctive mood (biblehub.com). The subjunctive mood apparently indicates a wish, emotion, possibility, judgment, opinion, obligation, or action that has not yet occurred (wikipedia), based on some condition or contingency. That is contrasted with the indicative mood, which indicates a plain statement of fact. This interpretation works with UR, CI, and ECT.
"Singalphile" - Name chosen (hastily) to indicate being on a narrow path, pursuing the love of God. Male, upper-30's, USA.
Last Edit: 11 months, 4 weeks ago by Singalphile.

Re: Every knee shall bow 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5117

  • Msandino
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Haha Yes - dangerous to bring religion into politics!

Not gonna go there.
Let me say that I have the utmost respect for Mr. Fudge and just bought the movie Hell and Mr Fudge on Amazon!

While I'd land in his camp in a New York minute if I had to choose between Evangelical Conditionalism and the monstrous and unBibilical teaching of Eternal Conscious Torment, I keep thinking the Scriptures prove Universal Reconciliation,

I submit to you Daniel 4: Nebuchadnezzar, horrible cruel king, a god until himself. Even though he had many direct miraculous experiences of God through Daniel, yet he refused to bow to His will, a veritable mountain of pride and stubborn, willful rebellion.

I maintain that God has a plan for the most wicked. He gave Nebuchadnezzar seven years...

Daniel 4:37
Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

Also I'd submit Saul turned Paul, self-confessed Chief of Sinners. Jesus took him out in an afternoon.

But, you will say, Saul was a religious man, who just thought he was getting rid of heretics!

So, I suggest, the same can be said of the worst ISIS murderers, who slash the necks of confessing Christians. They believe -- with their very lives -- that they are doing the will of Allah, doing Allah a favor, as in John 16:2 "... yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

What about Hitler? Isn't he the worst of all? Not unlike Paul, he sought to rid the world of the scourge that held back his people from prospering (NOT defending Hitler. I'm just saying....)

I can't see in the Holy Scriptures that the Sovereign Lord is either unwilling or unable to save --- and restore to the position of sons -- the very worst of human filth, who are actually His Creation.

Re: Every knee shall bow 7 months, 3 weeks ago #5120

I think Philippians 2:5-13 is saying:

God the Father highly rewards the Son for his great humility and obedience unto death.This reward and will of God the Father is that Jesus is exalted, glorified and universally confessed as Lord to the glory of God the Father.

When the saints imitate Christ, obey and work out their salvation with fear and trembling, it is God the Father who is working in them to will and to act in order to fulfill his good will.

That all knees should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge must mean an universal confession. It must speak of a time in the future where all people are able to glorify Christ.God wills it, do we doubt it?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Msandino

Re: Every knee shall bow 3 months, 4 weeks ago #5251

Bronson wrote:
I am trying to understand the Universalist's position, as i dont want to misrepresent and i am also still very open to the possibility that God saves all. Im trying to read, watch and think through a universalissts position

I was recently thinking about Phillipians 2:10 that every knee in heaven and on earth would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I would think being raised immortal and sinless would be incentive enough. Perhaps God stacks the odds in His favor a bit. The 1,000 year crowd is a static population and at the start and it remains that way for that whole era. The living water that is available to drink is in the river in Eze:47. Do you bend an knee to drink from a river??
The Judgment Day crowd that is the 2nd group mentioned in Re:7 are all waving palms. Would they have to bend a knee to pick up the palm if it was originally laying at their feet?

If 2 billion people are waving one would you be the lone holdout??
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