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Why not save all?
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TOPIC: Why not save all?

Re: Why not save all? 2 years, 11 months ago #3285

  • trident343
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I believe in Conditional Immortality.

Re: Why not save all? 1 year, 10 months ago #4109

  • RussianBlueMommy
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To me it seems pretty simple, that it isn't about God NOT choosing to save them, it's about them rejecting God. In fact, John 3:16 tells us that GOD is not willing for *ANY* to perish......

We see numerous scriptures that would counteract universalism.

To lay it out, here are some that "seal the deal" for me against universalism. They all indicate we have a choice from God. Accept, or Reject.

Joshua 24:15- "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Revelation 3:20- "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."....... NOTE: Opening is an indication that we are doing something, choosing to open the door. We could just as easily choose NOT to

Mark 8:34 - "And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me"

Those are just 3 verses that seem to indicate a choice is being made. Therefore, man rejects Christ- God wants everyone to be saved, it doesn't mean they want that for themselves.

The biggest reason I can't jump into the Univrsalism camp, is simply because that would defeat the purpose of The Great Commission. We are commanded to preach the gospel, if everyone will be saved eventually anyway- why bother?

Just my 2 cents.
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Mel

Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.- Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Why not save all? 1 year, 10 months ago #4112

  • jeremiah
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...why bother?

Because that salvation, whether now or then, is from our sin, in which we are dead and will remain dead until by Jesus, we receive life.

To my mind, the only way universal salvation would make the great commission redundant is by conceiving the salvation Jesus brings to be a salvation primarily from hell--whether that hell is the conditionalist's or the infernalist's--with little or no regard to the child of God actually learning to be a child of God. That is, ceasing to do evil and learning to do the good his father does.

When it is life from the dead that is primary, the beginning or duration of our correction as children does not affect the urgency of making more disciples of Jesus, nor teaching them to be taught of him. We were created to breathe, so we can be sure that the dead always need breath.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Last Edit: 1 year, 10 months ago by jeremiah.

Re: Why not save all? 1 year, 10 months ago #4113

  • noctuary
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There are some problems with the free will / choice thing. First, why do some choose for God and others don't? Is it because some people are smarter, wiser, possess more light? Second, most evangelicals believe that babies and young children who die are saved. But if babies and young children are all saved, then where is the "choice"? What are the odds that all babies and young children would choose for God?

Re: Why not save all? 1 year, 10 months ago #4114

  • RussianBlueMommy
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noctuary wrote:
But if babies and young children are all saved, then where is the "choice"? What are the odds that all babies and young children would choose for God?


In risk of a lynching, I don't know that they are. . I see no evidence in scripture for such... What do I see?

Christian Culture

"God is Just"
"That is not the nature of God....."

Not Biblical but cultural.

We do have David's baby he had with Bathsheeba, but that isn't a GUARANTEE... rather it's a lament and prayer of David's hope.

The 'age of accountability' is not Biblical, but started with the Roman Catholicism movement.
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Mel

Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.- Proverbs 27:17
Last Edit: 1 year, 10 months ago by RussianBlueMommy.

Re: Why not save all? 1 year, 10 months ago #4120

  • Sherman
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Good morning RBM,

I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to respond from my Universalist perspective to your noted objections to UR.

RussianBlueMommy wrote:
To me it seems pretty simple, that it isn't about God NOT choosing to save them, it's about them rejecting God. In fact, John 3:16 tells us that GOD is not willing for *ANY* to perish......

First note that in the Greek text the verbs are Present Tense and could, I believe should, be interpreted that it is not God's will for any to be perishing but to be having eternal life." It is talking about the present reality of people. In the present reality some are "perishing" and some are "living", and this living is in knowing the Father, having a personal relationship with Jesus.

We see numerous scriptures that would counteract universalism.

To lay it out, here are some that "seal the deal" for me against universalism. They all indicate we have a choice from God. Accept, or Reject.

Joshua 24:15- "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."


Note that Joshua is speaking to the children of God, those who have already been "saved". In this case they had literally been saved from slavery and death to live in the new kingdom of Israel. Most calls to repentance are to the children of God, to believers, to those already in covenant relationship with God. And note that the penalty for the Israelites who choose to not follow God is pretty well laid out in the Law - sickness, destruction, captivity, bondage, and death; but this doesn't imply annihilation, much less ECT.

Revelation 3:20- "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."....... NOTE: Opening is an indication that we are doing something, choosing to open the door. We could just as easily choose NOT to


Again, note that this verse is not a call to unbelievers to believe, though it is often used that way. In context it is a call to the churches to repent, to embrace close fellowship with Jesus. And yes, some believers are not nearly as close to the Lord as they could be, myself especially. But again, this passage does not imply either annihilation or ECT.

Mark 8:34 - "And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me"

Those are just 3 verses that seem to indicate a choice is being made. Therefore, man rejects Christ- God wants everyone to be saved, it doesn't mean they want that for themselves.

Again note that in this passage Jesus is calling his followers to a higher level of commitment, a willingness to suffer for the sake of Christ. And such willingness will be rewarded greatly by the Father. And those who deny the Lord will suffer shame, but this does not imply annihilation, much less ECT.

The biggest reason I can't jump into the Univrsalism camp, is simply because that would defeat the purpose of The Great Commission. We are commanded to preach the gospel, if everyone will be saved eventually anyway- why bother?

Just my 2 cents.

Why do I share the Gospel, the Good News of God's love for all, His desire to reconcile all, and my faith that He ultimately will reconcile all? Because 1) I love Jesus and people naturally talk about what/who they love. 2) Because I love people and in this present evil age many people do not have a relationship with Our Father and are perishing! So love for them motivates me to share with them the Good News of Our Father's love. 3) Because Jesus said to do it, and my love for Him and people compels me to share the Gospel. 4) Because I believe that the Good News is truly the power of God unto salvation! The Gospel is like a seed which when planted cannot be stopped.

I could go on and on with reasons why I so joyfully proclaim the Gospel. And for me one of the primary reasons is because UR is truly Good News for everyone, not just for some, but for everyone. ECT and Annihilationism are both only good news for some people, either the chosen (Calvinism) or those who choose (Arminianism). Of course, Annihilationism is not as Bad news as ECT, but it is still bad news for many (non-chosen or those who do not choose).

I won't get into all the reasons why I believe that Jesus truly is savior of all; if interested you can read my thread on that. Why I believe Jesus is Savior of All
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