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Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation
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TOPIC: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation

Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3315

  • Readheart
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Webb

I understand that you are coming from a totally opposite foundational view of scripture. My point about Paul is that he was not searching or looking to place faith in Christ. Therefore, from many scriptures it is evident that this ' unwillingness' of Paul was not an obstacle for God.

Christian Theology has been varied and differentiated throughout time. No theological model can claim infallibility in their interpretation of scriptures. The flaw and inconsistency I see from taking a more ' free will' approach to redemption is all the glory goes to the intelligence of fallen human beings instead of the finished work of Christ.
Let everyone enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for himself:... — John Wesley
Last Edit: 2 years, 10 months ago by Readheart.

Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3316

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Redheart,

Thanks for engaging with me and considering my point of view. It does, I have to admit, seem very strange for one Christian to say to another that their approach to Scripture comes from a "totally opposite foundational view." I could get the impression from that kind of talk that you don't regard me as a fellow believer.

Let me ask you this. Let us say that God once said to me, when I had been self-alienated from God and lost in sin, "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you!" And I said, "Yes, God, and yes, Savior Jesus, source of all life and my ransomer from death, I hear your voice, and I awake in joy and gratitude to new life! I give you the glory for creating me, I give you the glory for being patient with me, when I was living destructively, I give you the glory for paying for my sins with your very lifeblood, I give you the glory for choosing, in your mercy, to speak the word of resurrection to new life to my dead soul. I give you glory for every work of obedience, witness, and service that your Spirit will ever accomplish in me, because it is you who made me to bear fruit of God's glory as God's beloved child--made in your image, and therefore only too naturally inclined towards love and good works." How is it that "all the glory goes to the intelligence of fallen human beings" in this story? Because that is my story, and that is my style of prayer to this day after more than forty years as a believer in and follower of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3317

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Redheart,

If you don't mind indulging me, I still hope for an answer to my question posed in my post 3310 on this thread.

Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3325

  • Givemhell
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I enjoyed reading your responses webb. I thought you did a bang up job. Of course, I would have answered my own way as a reformer so it was interesting to see a good response to Universalism from a different perspective.
What bliss will fill the ransomed souls,
When they in glory dwell,
To see the sinner as he rolls,
In quenchless flames of hell.

- Isaac Watts
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Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3336

  • Readheart
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Webb,

Coming from a universal perspective we view all as united under the finished work of Christ. You mentioned your personal prayer life, there is no judgement on my part about your graciousness of faith.

Have a great time at the conference. I hope you will be able to attend.
Let everyone enjoy the full and free liberty of thinking for himself:... — John Wesley
Last Edit: 2 years, 10 months ago by Readheart.

Re: Why I Do Not Believe in Universal Salvation 2 years, 10 months ago #3353

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Pride, the biblical sin, is not the same thing as having a high opinion of your own worth. Jesus is not proud, and he knows himself to be the eternal Son of God. I need not be proud to recognize myself as a child of the Living God--the highest status possible in the universe short of being divine myself.

Pride is trying to achieve a greater sense of your own worth by demeaning the worth of someone else. It is looking on yourself as better than, as being worth more, than others whom God loves and values as much as God loves and values you. Racism and nationalism and sexism are all manifestations of pride.

If a person's Bible-based answer to the question, "What kinds of beings has God created to be his children?" is "Only human beings," then they have not yet gotten to grips with the problem of pride. Because the Bible clearly and unmistakably assigns "sons (children) of God" identity and status to the angels. See Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7). On this, see later editions of Calvin's Institutes, which pour forth about 7,000 words purporting to teach what the Bible says about angels, without ever once admitting that they share with us the status of children of God.

What's the relevance of this for the doctrine of the future fate of the unrepentant? The fact that angels are our fellow children of God explains the fact that, in Isa. 24:21-23, unrepentant human beings and angels are treated in the very same way (they are imprisoned together in the "pit" for "many days," or in "the age-long fire," in Mt. 25:41) on the day when God comes to reign in glory on the earth, and that is also why they are treated the same when they rebel together in Isa. 27:1-5 || Rev. 20:7-10 || Rev. 20:13-15. Both kinds of beings end up in the lake of fire together.
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