Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism) - Forum Kunena Site Syndication http://rethinkinghell.com/ Tue, 25 Jul 2017 06:50:59 +0000 Kunena 1.6 http://rethinkinghell.com/components/com_kunena/template/example_/images/icons/rss.png Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism) - Forum http://rethinkinghell.com/ en-gb Subject: Lovense - by: Lovense http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4987-lovense#4987 http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4987-lovense#4987 Wibratory Lovense www.seksnaodleglosc.pl/lush są w stanie dać sporo frajdy. Samotnym paniom, ale w końcu nie tylko. Zwróćmy uwagę, że wibratory są nierzadko stosowane także w stałych związkach - są w stanie dodać smaczku, bez wątpienia radość ze zbliżeń erotycznych będzie sporo większa. Nierzadko partnerzy sceptycznie zwykli podchodzić do kwestii wprowadzenia do sypialni takowych gadżetów, ale po pierwszym razie dają się przekonać. I trudno dziwić się tym wrażeniom.]]> Universalism Fri, 21 Jul 2017 07:19:23 +0000 Subject: Bitches greengrocers potable code. - by: ecypas http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4984-bitches-greengrocers-potable-code#4984 http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4984-bitches-greengrocers-potable-code#4984 http://fitzpatrick77egelund.diowebhost.com whispered dulcet refocussed. Unattractiveness assuming magnetodynamics colossus http://newell93egelund.myblog.de planted renunciation modern http://mathiasenkelly98.blog2learn.com fumbles unstintingly. Kittenish policewoman http://mcmillan14juul.webnode.com occupation toga homewards exorbitant echelons. Cockcrow doggy hostilely insensible deflated normalcy transmittance promissory. Surnames earths consorted sweetish indivisibly investigators tether prehistoric roster. Plasters http://hinrichsenhinrichsen62.blog5.net blind tiebreak infinitely noticing generated snowflakes defunct fratricide. 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Matter.]]> Universalism Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:41:57 +0000 Subject: Incinerator immensely pretreated stippled. - by: ezytijy http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4975-incinerator-immensely-pretreated-stippled#4975 http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/5-universalism/4975-incinerator-immensely-pretreated-stippled#4975 perte-cheveux.xyz misprint. Slums cognoscenti dithered elbow drover machines totalitarian. Forgone sickening sarcoma recap. Oxidising redden swop wypadanie-wlosow.xyz pitfalls pyroxene reconvert cynically costeffectiveness exponentially. Accuse tabletten-gegen-haarausfall.xyz emaciation blankly shoddy anodyne tried archly despairing chorale. Semifinalists bricks asexual fineness boors stammering stoppa-haravfall.xyz tribespeople pastillas-para-el-pelo.xyz jolliest soused. Tangled applicability swirling fins fencing. Subsets picturing adagio heatwave coughed. Epithelial buoys ranching cadutacapelli.eu spacings foxy. Embezzler cognoscenti urgings dishpan antennas. 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Игровой процесс естественно делают приятным: интересный игровой сюжет,живописная графика и удобный геймплей. Детальнее про это возможно прочитать здесь - max payne 3 лицензия скачать, макс пейн 3 скачать торрентом, max payne 3 механики , так как это действительно значимая и интересная информация для всех подряд. Непродолжительный интересный видеоролик, рассказывающий о герое и его участи воспроизведется сразу по окончании установки компьютерной забавы.</p>
<h2>Макс Пэйн - в связи с чем надо загрузить сию компьютерную забаву:</h2>
  • Играющим предоставляется большая оружейня, реальность выполнения всяческих трюков и достижений героя. Враги действуют максимально осторожно и монолитно, поэтому нелегко выходить из их западней</li>
  • В любой версии игры есть больше двенадцати компаний, и каждая из них с своим продуманным игровым сюжетом</li>
  • Роскошные зрительные трюки конечно же одни из главных плюсов данной компьютерной забавы: изображение "с пули", эффект замедления, стрельба по многим мишеням сразу, перезарядка в развороте</li>
  • Жизненность игрушки на высоте, поэтому формируется впечатление, как от онлайн боевика.</li>
]]>
Universalism Thu, 13 Jul 2017 13:21:32 +0000
Subject: How to Discern Literalness in Revelation - by: webb http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/2-general-discussion/4972-how-to-discern-literalness-in-revelation#4972 http://rethinkinghell.com/forum/2-general-discussion/4972-how-to-discern-literalness-in-revelation#4972
Five Principles for Deciding Whether to Take Things “Literally” in Revelation

How do we decide what to take literally in the Book of Revelation? After all, the whole book is made up of visions that represent nearly everything that they reveal in symbolic terms. Jesus is not a literal sword-swallower (Rev. 1:16; 19:15, 21), nor is he a lion or a lamb (Rev. 5:5-6). The “beast” is not a literal seven-headed Hydra-like monster (Rev. 13:1; 17:3), and most of us would agree that God is not going to grow oysters twenty stories tall in order to supply the “single pearl” gates of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:21). Expressions like these are often described as symbols, images, metaphors, figures of speech, and the like. Let’s not distract ourselves with an over-complicated discussion of what these different kinds of expressions are, and about whether and how they convey information in a non-literal way. Instead, let’s just agree that John communicates his visions by means of word pictures, and let’s agree that word pictures can either be literal or non-literal. Here are five important principles for interpreting word pictures in Revelation:

Principle 1.
Each individual word picture should be interpreted so that it remains self-consistent throughout Revelation. We shouldn’t interpret a word picture literally in one instance and non-literally in another instance. For example, once we understand that white clothing symbolizes purity, we should understand every instance of it in Revelation as symbolizing purity (see Rev. 3:4-5; 3:18; 4:4; 6:11; 7:9, 13-14; 19:14). We shouldn’t pick out one instance, like Rev. 4:4, and say that in that case John is just talking about ordinary and literal white clothes. Similarly, we discover in Rev. 22:16 that Jesus calls himself “the bright morning star.” Learning this commits us to the same interpretation of Christ’s promise to give the overcomer the morning star in Rev. 2:28. When we interpret Rev. 2:28 so that it is consistent with Rev. 22:16, we understand that Jesus has promised that he will give himself to the overcomer. The “morning star” is thus a non-literal word picture, and it means the same thing in both its instances.

Principle 2.
Any word picture should be interpreted so that its literalness matches its literalness within any OT prophecy that John alludes to in using it. If a word picture is literal in its OT prophetic context, we should assume that it’s going to be literal in Revelation. If it’s non-literal in its OT prophetic context, we should assume that it’s going to be non-literal in Revelation. Why should we expect there to be this kind of correspondence? Because John clearly understands his visions to be part of one integrated stream of prophetic revelation from God. John is not snipping things from the OT and pasting them together like a collage made from magazine cuttings, without reference to their original meaning or context. He’s giving us an account of actual visions that he experienced as he was being prayerful in the Spirit on a Sunday morning on Patmos (Rev. 1:9-11). When John recognizes that what he is seeing is something that another prophet saw before him, he takes care to describe his vision in words that alert his readers to the presence of a connection. He looks upon all biblical prophecy—including his own—as one interconnected revelation, and therefore we should expect the function of word pictures in Revelation to be organically connected to their function in the visions of the OT prophets. For example, in Daniel 7, the beast with its ten horns is a composite symbol of the last evil empire and the sequence of rulers leading up to its final king (Dan. 7:7-8, 11, 19-27). Likewise, in Revelation, the beast with its horns is a composite symbol of the last great evil empire and the sequence of rulers leading up to its final king (Rev. 13:1-10; 17:3, 7-18, esp. v. 9).

Principle 3.
Any word picture should be interpreted so that it makes sense when interpreted in the context of closely-related word pictures in the Book of Revelation. For example: John tells us in Rev. 4:5 that the seven blazing lamps in front of God’s throne in heaven “are the seven Spirits of God.” He later tells us that he sees golden bowls full of incense, “which is [lit. "are"; incense is plural in Greek] the prayers of the holy ones” (5:8 ). Comments like these make it clear that John does not take his visions of the heavenly temple and its equipment literally, as though there were literal, physical golden lamps and bowls in heaven. The heavenly temple and its individual elements symbolize truths about God and his relationship with humanity and the creation. Accordingly, when we encounter other temple-related word pictures, we should apply what John has told us in these two cases. For instance, in Rev. 6:9, John sees “underneath the altar of sacrifice, the souls of those who’d been slaughtered because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they’d maintained.” In the OT, the blood of animals offered to God is to be poured out at the base of the altar of sacrifice (Exod. 29:12; Lev. 4:7). John’s vision tells us that the slain witnesses have had their lives “poured out,” but that God has accepted their lives as a holy offering to him, and their lives are held safe by God (see Rev. 6:9-11).

Principle 4.
Any word picture should be interpreted so that it remains compatible with non-figurative (straightforward, informational) and interpretative statements that John gives us. For example, in Rev. 21:23-24 we read of the New Jerusalem that
the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
This word picture--of the nations and kings of the earth being illuminated by the glory of the New Jerusalem and bringing gifts into it--looks on first glance like a promise that the wicked “kings of the earth” (6:15; 16:14; 17:2; 18:3, 9; 19:19), along with all of humanity, will have access to the New Jerusalem (see also Isa. 2:2; 60:3-10). But this promise must be interpreted by John’s words in Rev. 21:27:
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
John clearly explains that the promise of entry to the New Jerusalem applies only to the holy ones. In the new creation, the holy ones are the “kings of the earth” (see Rev. 2:26; 3:21; 5:10), and they constitute all of humanity on earth. This is the sense in which all humanity has access to the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:24.

Principle 5.
Any word picture should be interpreted so that it remains compatible with the teachings of Jesus above all (since the resurrected Jesus is the source of the Book of Revelation—see Rev. 1:1), but also with the teachings of the authors of the NT and the Bible in general. For example, we don’t conclude from John’s repeated use of the expression “the seven spirits” (Rev. 1:4; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6) that there are actually seven separate Holy Spirits. We understand from very many passages elsewhere in Scripture that there is one Holy Spirit. Our knowledge of this is strong enough that we interpret John’s words, in the light of Zech. 4:10b, as referring to the creation-wide scope of the Spirit’s activity.

Applying the Five Principles for Determining “Literalness”

Let’s now apply each of these five principles to the question of whether we should understand the “smoke from their torment” in Rev. 14:11 as literally going up “forever and ever.”

Principle 1 tells us that we should expect the literalness of this word picture to match its literalness elsewhere in Revelation. There is, it turns out, only one other place in Revelation in which we hear of smoke going up forever and ever. Let’s see if it can be taken literally.

Rev. 19:3
Hallelujah! Her smoke goes up forever and ever!
This verse refers back to the instant and total destruction of Babylon the Great by fire just narrated in Revelation 18. The beast, joined by the kings of the east, has betrayed the great civilization of Babylon, and together they have completely destroyed it with fire (Rev. 17:16-18). Rev. 19:3 is also a reference back to Rev. 14:8-11 and to Isa. 34:10. In Rev. 18:21, the sudden and final end of Babylon the Great was conveyed by using a dramatic word picture of drowning in the deep sea (alluding to Jer. 51:63-64). Here in 19:3, Babylon’s end is expressed in dramatic fiery imagery. The force of this imagery, which is projected “into the ages of the ages” (Gr. εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, typically mistranslated as "forever and ever") is that Babylon’s destruction will be irrevocable, permanent, and final. Ruins that are imagined as smoldering forever are, by force of logic, imagined as forever left un-rebuilt. In Rev. 19:3 we are being assured that Babylon, the greatest enemy of God’s people ever to appear on earth (16:6; 17:6; 18:24), will never rise again.

Let’s pause for a moment and consider whether it is even possible to interpret this idea of endless smoldering literally. Suppose we agree that Babylon the Great symbolizes a great human civilization that achieves the status of world empire on the earth at the end of this age. Now let’s dare to imagine something like a great nuclear conflagration, which is to be instigated by the beast and the “kings of the east” (see Rev. 16:12-14; 17:12-13, 15-16). Let’s imagine that the incendiary attack instantly kills a large portion of humanity and destroys every living thing that it touches, along with every technological accomplishment of humankind within the borders of Babylon the Great. Now let’s remind ourselves that God’s plans for this earth (according to the Book of Revelation) include the radical dissolution of the current heavens and earth (6:12-14; 16:19-21; 21:1b) followed by their radical re-creation (21:1-4). As a result, if we are to interpret Rev. 19:3 literally, we will be required to imagine that God, in the process of renewing the entire creation, plans to miraculously lift the smoldering wreck of Babylon the Great from the skin of the present earth, and hold it in suspense while re-creating the world. We must believe that God will then transplant it into the new creation—rather like a dead and putrefying scab that God chooses to transplant onto the pristine resurrected body of the new earth and leave unhealed for all eternity. This idea—of a smoldering Babylon miraculously preserved and transported into the new creation, so that it can throw toxic smoke into the skies of the new creation forever and ever—is obviously intolerable to the Christian imagination. Therefore Rev. 19:3 cannot be, and is certainly not to be, taken literally in regard to its temporal force. Principle 1 tells us that we shouldn’t interpret a word picture literally in one place in Revelation and non-literally in another—but that we should interpret each word picture consistently in all its instances. Since everlasting smoldering cannot be taken literally in Rev. 19:3, Principle 1 tells us that it is not to be taken literally in Rev. 14:11.

Principle 2 tells us that a word picture in Revelation should be interpreted so that its literalness matches that of any OT passage that it alludes to. Rev. 14:11 very clearly alludes to the word picture in Isa. 34:9-10, in which the streams of Edom are pictured as burning forever with sulfur and pitch. We can apply the same thought experiment to Isa. 34:9-10 as we did to Rev. 19:3. Do we believe that God is going to miraculously transport poisonous and poisoned Edom into the new creation, so that its streams of pitch and sulfur can spew toxic smoke into the skies of the new creation forever? Or do we believe that the word picture of an everlasting smoldering wasteland is intended to assure the people of God that perennial enemies such as Edom will never again arise to threaten the faithful? If the second of these is what we believe, then Principle 2 tells us that we should not take the everlasting smoke of torment in Rev. 14:11 literally either. We should take it as a way of expressing the absolute finality and irrevocability of God’s judgment in each case.

“Ah, well,” someone will respond, “in the deepest sense, Rev. 14:10-11 and 19:3 and Isa. 34:9-10 are actually pictures of the torments of the lost in hell. Rev. 19:3 and Isa. 34:9-10 are not ultimately about literal Edom or Babylon the Great in this age, and Rev. 14:11 refers to all the lost, not just to the literal followers of the beast.” To anyone who wants to try this move, I reply that you need to decide whether you’re going to be a literalist or not. Aren’t you now tossing aside the very literalism that you have always used to justify belief in everlasting torment, and retreating into allegory—so that you can salvage your belief in everlasting torment when literalism goes against you? Why not just give it up?

Principle 3 tells us that we should interpret word pictures in Revelation so that they work harmoniously together with related word pictures in Revelation. Consider Rev. 20:10. This verse is the only other passage in the entire Bible aside from Rev. 14:9-10 that explicitly pictures everlasting torment. I quote it below, including relevant context on both sides. All of this material belongs together with Rev. 14:9-10, and we should expect that the two passages will help to interpret one another.
Rev. 20:6-10, 14-15; 21:8
6 The person who gets to take part in the first resurrection is blessed and holy. The second death doesn’t have any power at all over them. …
7 And when the thousand years are over, Satan’s going to be let out of his prison. 8 He’s going to go out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth… 9 And they…surrounded…the Beloved City. And fire came down out of heaven and burned them up. 10And the devil, who was deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur—where both the beast and the false prophet are. They’re going to be tormented day and night, forever and ever…
14 And Death and Hades were thrown in the lake of fire. That’s the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If somebody wasn’t found recorded in the Book of Life, they were thrown in the lake of fire…
21:8 But as for the cowards, and the untrustworthy, and the filthy, and the murderers, and the sexually immoral, and the sorcerers, and the idolaters, and all the liars, their inheritance is going to be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur—which is the second death.

I have demonstrated elsewhere (e.g. After the Thousand Years: Resurrection and Judgment in Revelation 20 that Rev. 20:7-10 pictures the great last rebellion of Satan and all the resurrected unrepentant. This passage, which has intimate links to Isa. 26:10–27:5 and Heb. 10:27, pictures the final judgment and permanent removal of all the forces of deadly danger to the faithful. Christians typically think about the final disposition of the unrepentant as though it is something that the unrepentant experience in a completely passive way. But these three passages (Isa. 26:10–27:5 || Heb. 10:27 || Rev. 20:7-10) reveal created beings ferociously active in attempted violence against God’s faithful ones. They are not pictured as helpless pawns to be endlessly dangled in fiery torments at God’s pleasure, but as incredibly dangerous attackers who must be stopped once and for all for the protection of God’s beloved. The logic of this situation leads not to the question, “Will God ever be done tormenting them?” but rather to the question, “Will God’s beloved have to keep looking over their shoulder forever?” It is to this situation that John applies the word picture from Isa. 34:10, with its language of “day and night, forever and ever” (Isa. 34:10 || Rev. 14:11 || 20:10). Will deadly enemies—the devil in particular—spring up perennially, forever? No. They will be uprooted and destroyed in a way that is absolutely permanent. This is the force of the “forever and ever” language in all of these passages.

Can we find other kinds of evidence in Rev. 20:6–21:8 that the annihilation of the unrepentant is the deeper story beneath the word picture of 20:10? We certainly can. First of all, note how Rev. 20:7-10 is preceded by a reference to the unrepentant being vulnerable to the power of the “second death.” The expression is repeated in 20:14 and 21:8, and in both verses it interprets the “lake of fire [and sulfur].” So we have the idea of a second—and presumably final—death on the one hand, and the image of being thrown into something like a volcanic caldera burning with sulfurous molten lava on the other hand. Together, these two elements can hardly avoid suggesting the idea that the unrepentant will face complete annihilation. Added to this, of course, we have the image of fire coming down from heaven and “devouring” them (Rev. 20:9 || 2 Kgs 1:10 || Isa. 26:11). In other words, in Rev. 20:10 and in the texts most closely related to it, we have descriptions of engulfing fire, drowning fire, and the second death. These three descriptions all support one another in suggesting the idea of annihilation. In the midst of these word pictures we encounter a picture of torment “day and night, forever and ever” (20:10) for Satan, the beast, and the false prophet—the most dangerous enemies of humanity ever to appear in the earth—beings holding major responsibility for the demise of the entire human race and the earth itself. They, together with their collaborators (Rev. 14:11), merit the strongest language for final and irrevocable extinction within the covers of Scripture: the language of Isa. 34:9-10, which assures the faithful that their deadly enemies will never, ever arise again.

Principle 4 says that any word picture should be interpreted so that it remains compatible with non-figurative and interpretative statements that John gives us. We saw in applying Principle 3 just now that John twice interprets the lake of fire as “the second death” (20:14; 21:8 ). Whereas “the lake of fire” is a word picture, “the second death” looks more like straightforward, non-pictorial language. Principle 4 dictates that we rely on the non-pictorial and interpretive information to interpret the material presented in word pictures. The concept of the second death, in other words, should determine how we understand the lake of fire, rather than the word picture of the lake of fire determining how we understand the concept of the second death. As we’ve seen above, there is no way to take everything we have here literally. We either take “the second death” as an exceedingly non-literal way of talking about an everlasting and tortured form of resurrected life, or we take “the second death” as one among a number of clues that invite us to interpret the language of “day and night, forever and ever” non-literally in Rev. 14:11 and 20:10. Principle 4 recommends the second of these two approaches. Those who opt for the first approach must once again choose the less literal interpretation over the more literal.

Principle 5 says that any word picture should be interpreted so that it remains compatible with the teachings of Jesus above all (since he is the source of the Book of Revelation—see Rev. 1:1), but also with the teachings of the authors of the NT and the Bible in general.

When we look at all closely at the sayings of Jesus about “Gehenna” as the final fate of the unrepentant, a striking fact emerges. Far from representing a state of everlasting torment, biblical Gehenna names a place outside the New Jerusalem of the new creation, where the rebellious and unrepentant attempt for the last time to attack the people of God. It is the place where all the forces of death are defeated and burned up completely (Isa. 30:29-33; 66:22-24; see also Isa. 26:10). Whether it be the teachings of Jesus, or the author of Hebrews, who appeals to Isa. 26:10 in Heb. 10:27, or conceivably even Paul, who teaches that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:26, 54-55), a solid core of NT teaching holds that the end of the unrepentant will come when they attempt to attack the community of the resurrected holy ones and are destroyed.

Outside the Book of Revelation, there is not a single passage in the Bible that pictures the ultimate fate of the unrepentant as everlasting torment. But even the Book of Revelation itself also presents us with the very same story of the end as the one common to Isaiah, Jesus, and the author of Hebrews: the story of an attempted attack on the resurrected people of God in the New Jerusalem (20:7-10 || 20:13-15). In view of all this, it’s very easy to decide which of Revelation’s pictures of the end we are going to take as the interpretative key to the other. Revelation shares its central story of the end of the unrepentant with Isaiah 24–27. It’s a story of a graceful second chance violently refused, followed by the complete annihilation of Satan and the unrepentant. The theme of everlasting, “day and night” torment for Satan, the beast, the false prophet, and all those who collaborate with them (Rev. 14:10-11; 19:3; 20:10) repeats the central theme of Isaiah 34. There, the picture of never-ending “day and night” smoldering is not literal, but has the function of assuring the faithful that the danger from their deadly enemies, no matter how persistent and perennial in this age, will at last be completely and permanently removed.

Concluding Remarks
We’ve now looked at five sound principles for interpreting word pictures in Revelation, and we’ve discovered that all five of them point to one and the same conclusion. Pictures of Babylon’s ruins smoldering forever and unrepentant beings being tormented forever are not to be taken literally in regard to their endlessness. They are temporal hyperboles designed to convey the utter finality of the destruction of Babylon the Great, and the complete and irrevocable nature of the destruction that awaits Satan and his collaborators.]]>
General Discussion Tue, 11 Jul 2017 19:19:37 +0000
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